The Relationship of Happiness and Blessedness

No problem Pacatus I think the main part of the thread to which your refer is winding down with the opposing positions clearly stated -

Your question may go on longer so I'll move to another area.

Here's my view:

I would agree with the direction you are coming from Pacatus and "happiness" is the term I prefer to use for the reasonable human goal.

I'd also say it appears that just as today, Epicurus' time was filled with religious speculation and terminology. Most people were familiar with looking to the life of "the gods" as an example of the best life possible. Epicurus wouldn't have believed that the gods "bless" anyone directly, but as a shorthand for the best life, which is presumed to be what the gods live, the term probably can be used without injecting too much supernaturalism.

Same problem with "eudaimonia," and it's good demon, but Epicurus used the term anyway. if you want to be understood at all sometimes you have to adapt the common vocabulary.

FWIW From my Menoikeus commentary:

μακάριον

This word is often translated as "blessed, fortunate, wealthy, 'well-off.'" There appears to be no certain etymology of the root [makar] or the longer form [makarios/on]. It appears to possibly have something to do with being wealthy, either literally or figuratively. Taking Ancient Mythology Economically by Morris Silver (see link below) has a very interesting section on the origins of the word. This is yet another example of the inadequacy of using one word to translate from one language to another.

Taking Ancient Mythology Economically

books.google.com

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A quick digression on eudaimonia is appropriate here. εὐδαιμονία is defined by LSJ as "prosperity, good fortune, opulence; true, full happiness."

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?do…57%3Aentry%3Deu)daimoni%2Fa

The word is derived from εὐ- (eu-) "well, good" + δαιμονία (daimonia) "spirit, divine power." This is where English gets the word "demon" but it could be either benevolent (eudaimon) or malevolent (kakodaimon). If you have a good, benevolent in-dwelling spirit, you will lead a prosperous, healthy, flourishing, fortunate life. Socrates claimed to be listening to his daimon for guidance which was used against him at his trial as evidence of impiety. But the term generally in common parlance means what LSJ refers to. However, it encompasses a range of qualities but is often pared down in English to simply "happiness" which is woefully inadequate. It's much more than that, encompassing that and more. Translators try to convey this with paraphrases like "complete happiness," but our comparative translations just use "happiness." Sometimes it's left untranslated and only transliterated eudaimonia, but this is somewhat of a cheat, too. A cheat I may be guilty of shortly! If you look up that word in Merriam-Webster, it gives "well-being, happiness." So you see we can go in circles. Personally, I think "well-being" is better than "happiness" since it is almost a literal translation with a twist: eu- "well" + daimon "being" (the latter having a little double entendre). So, when you see any of those -- happiness, well-being, flourishing, eudaimonia -- remember that it's that word plus a little more. That's why I advocate using eudaimonia itself. There's a rabbit hole of papers, essays, and websites that convey the deep meaning of εὐδαιμονία if you feel intrepid.

There is a difference between "well-being" and "blessedness"...

In ancient Greek philosophy, Eudaimonia (εὐδαιμονία) is the process of active human flourishing, while Makarios (μακάριος) is the secure state of absolute contentment.

We could characterize Eudaimonia as the journey of a life well-lived, and Makarios as the ultimate, unshakeable peace resulting from it.

Here are their conceptual differences:

eudaimonia (human well-being) - Having a "good inner spirit" or guiding genius. Active & Generative: Living excellently according to virtue and reason over a lifetime. Human Effort: Built step-by-step through moral choices, education, and habituation. Slightly Vulnerable: Aristotle noted tragedy or extreme misfortune (like King Priam) could break eudaimonia.

makarios (divine blessedness / bliss) - Blessed, supremely fortunate, or self-contained. Static & Experiential: A steady state of undisturbed mental peace and completion. Divine or Ideal: Historically a quality unique to the gods, later achieved by humans through deep philosophical peace. Invulnerable: A state of ataraxia so deep that external crises cannot shatter it.

In the Letter to Menoeceus, Epicurus closely links these terms to redefine how humans experience happiness: The Path (Eudaimonia): Epicurus argues that certain basic, natural desires are essential for eudaimonia. We achieve this by actively pruning away empty desires (like the pursuit of fame or endless luxury) and eliminating the mental pain caused by the fear of death or the gods. The Goal (Makarios): By successfully practicing this active Epicurean lifestyle, a person transitions into a state of μακαρίως (blessedly) living. You acquire a god-like tranquility, meaning your mind is completely peaceful and satisfied, having transcended regular human anxiety.

So you could say that eudiamonia is kinetic, and blessedness is katastematic.

Quote from Pacatus

This is exactly the kind of ideal (in the sense of ultimate goal or telos) I no longer entertain, let alone strive for – like Nirvana or Bodhi or “big Satori.” I just let that kind of thing go – relaxing from it, as it were.

I 100% agree Pacatus, and while also not denigrating any sincere Epicurean's argument about this, I think it's very very dangerous to look at it that way. Human life can and should target conceptual ideals as a way to visualize the best life, as a way of making the best decisions, but if you think that your targeting is going to actually make you an Epicurean god, you're sadly deluded, and I don't see the texts justifying that as what the Epicureans meant. Living "as a god among men" cannot have meant that you are going to live as an ACTUAL god among men.

Quote from Pacatus

I have become more and more a “one day at a time” kind of guy.

And that's why I see this as relevant to the other thread on how widespread literacy was in the ancient world, and why it grew so well in the Roman world in particular. When you are practical-minded and have limited time to pore over abstract texts, you have no choice but focus on practical conclusions and applications.

Quote from Pacatus

Quote from Kalosyni

You acquire a god-like tranquility, meaning your mind is completely peaceful and satisfied, having transcended regular human anxiety

This is exactly the kind of ideal (in the sense of ultimate goal or telos) I no longer entertain, let alone strive for – like Nirvana or Bodhi or “big Satori.” I just let that kind of thing go – relaxing from it, as it were.

Note: Speaking only for myself, not denigrating or dismissing anyone else’s quest or pursuit!

Pacatus

Here is why I think is important to contemplate a difference between "well-being" (of living a life well) and "blessedness" (of the gods) -- as according to the Letter to Menoeceus and Epicurean philosophy. And also when doing so, it is important to set aside other spiritual/philosophical notions and ideas such as "Nirvana/bodhi/satori" etc.

In Epicurean philosophy we see at the start of the Letter to Menoeceus and at the start of the Principal Doctrines, the idea of accustoming oneself to understand the true nature of death. If we combine this with understanding the natural world, and the nature of the soul, as is explained in De Rerum Natura, we come to see more clearly the causes of things and the natural cycles of things.

This is a process that takes time. However, after having fully grasped this new way of mentally relating to the idea of death, it is impossible to lose this understanding. This contemplation and understanding gives one quite a different approach to both life and death that the average person does not have (they may have intense worries, fears, and grief with regard to death that come up anytime death is seen or talked about). This Epicurean cultivated attitude, which is achievable by anyone who takes up the practice, can be said to be a kind of fearlessness that the gods possess. A main reason that the gods are blessed is because they go about their existence without the fears of death that plague humans.

This can be such a different way of viewing death that others that don't see it the same way will be either at awe or shocked. So it is best to just console and comfort others as best as one can. This grounded quality toward death will externally (to others) make one appear "as wise".

Quote from Pacatus

But “blessedness” is not one that works for me either way. Perhaps I just don't understand it the way that those for whom it is helpful do. So, I just let it go (past tense there) – along with the gods.

Exactly - what meaning can "blessed -" possibly carry to a normal ear today other than "blessed by the gods" which Epicurus explicitly rejected. It's a word that appears and has to be incorporated in reviewing texts, but I see no reason to focus on it in normal conversation today rather than "happiness" or "well being" or "the best life."

Quote from Kalosyni

it is important to set aside other spiritual/philosophical notions and ideas such as "Nirvana/bodhi/satori" etc.

Good point. While there may be superficial similarities to these notions, those fall apart upon any closer examination. There are completely different underpinnings and frameworks.

Quote from Kalosyni

after having fully grasped this new way of mentally relating to the idea of death, it is impossible to lose this understanding.

Exactly! Well put.

Quote from Kalosyni

a kind of fearlessness that the gods possess.

I've never heard it put quite that way before. I like that idea.

From post 1 above:

Quote from Pacatus

I know this has been discussed before, but I forget. What exactly do we mean by “blessedness” (in simple terms)? It seems to me something like “sainthood” (say, in the sense of Orthodox Christianity – not the Lutheran “sainthood of all believers”.)

It does not seem like something I strive for, or am much interested in. I just try to live a happier life – in terms of more pleasure (kinetic/katastematic), less pain (physical/mental) by my choices, one day at a time.

But maybe I misunderstand …

I think that it is very important when approaching the study of Epicurus, the Letter to Menoeceus, and the word "blessedness" as it relates to Epicurean philosophy, to do so with the intention of "exegesis" (a critical interpretation of a text to discover its intended meaning).

There is something called an "exegetical fallacy" and one example of that type of fallacy is when someone fails to consider the historical context of texts and specific words - and this is called semantic anachronism. This occurs when a modern meaning of a word is read back into earlier literature, ignoring its original context, and the original historical and cultural context is ignored.

This fallacy leads to misinterpretation and can alter the implications and conclusion.

Being aware that semantic anachronism can occur is crucial when approaching the interpretation of an ancient text. Studying deeper into the historical context surround a text helps maintain the integrity of the text by respecting its historical and cultural background.

Once we examine the original context, and gather our general interpretation, then we can take the next step of seeing if there is a way to adapt any that texts "truths" to modern life.

And, everyone has unique and differing ways of adapting the material of Epicurus for their own personal lives (this would be called "eisegesis" because it is "adding into something".)

But generally we should all see fairly similar exegetically interpretations, or at least be able to see how these interpretations are formed.

The truth of the matter is that this forum functions as a free-for-all without any kind of specific aim. Some people what to focus on finding textual interpretion, and others want to enjoy examining a text of Epicurus as if it were a kind of "Rorschach inkblot test". And almost none of us (including myself) are disciplined scholars.

Pacatus . Your post #12 is something quite peculiar. It almost never happens that someone writes so many sentences and every single one of them makes me say: 'Yes, exactly.'. I read the whole thing and started to laugh out loud at the end because I had said: 'Yes, exactly.' dozen of times. Well done, my telepathic twin brother from a different mother.

I thought it might be instructive to see how "blessed" aka makarios is used in other contexts in ancient Greek contexts unrelated to the Epicurean description of the gods.

Quote from Plato, Laws

What, then, and how many are the lives in which a man—when he has chosen the desirable and voluntary in preference to the undesirable and the involuntary, and has made it into a private law for himself, by choosing what is at once both congenial and pleasant and most good and noble—may live as happily (μακαριώτατα makariōtata) as man can? Let us pronounce that one of them is the temperate life, one the wise, one the brave, and let us class the healthy life as one; and to these let us oppose four others—the foolish, the cowardly, the licentious, and the diseased.

Quote from Xenophon, Cyropaedia

What a happy fellow (μακάριε makarie) you must be,” said the Sacian, “for every reason, but particularly because from being poor you have become rich. For you must enjoy your riches much more, I think, for the very reason that it was only after being hungry for wealth that you became rich.”

Quote from Plato, Meno

Stranger, you must think me a specially favoured mortal (μακάριός makarios), to be able to tell whether virtue can be taught, or in what way it comes to one: so far am I from knowing whether it can be taught or not, that I actually do not even know what the thing itself, virtue, is at all.

Quote from Aristophanes, Wasps

Xanthias

Oh! tortoises! happy (μακάριαι makariai) to have so hard a skin, thrice happy (τρις μακάριαι makariai) to carry this roof that protects your backs! Oh! creatures full of sense! what a happy thought to cover your bodies with this shell, which shields it from blows! As for me, I can no longer move; the stick has so belaboured my body.