Posts by Cassius

Yes -

Happy Birthday Eikadistes and thank you very much for all you do here!

Happy Birthday to Eikadistes! Learn more about Eikadistes and say happy birthday on Eikadistes's timeline: Eikadistes

Quote from dlippman

I find it fascinating that the ancient debate between Aristotle and Epicurus continues today in modern medicine—particularly in positive psychology's focus on Eudaimonia (Aristotle) vs Hedonia (Epicurus).

In addition with the problem of abstract ideals that you mentioned, I suspect that at least part of that debate still revolves around the question of what "happiness" really means. Just like "Virtue" being hard to define, it's much easier to understand happiness as pleasures predominating pains (each term broadly defined), than it is to try to itemize exactly what qualities "happiness" divorced from pleasure would really mean, or why they should be pursued.

Again great introduction and thank you for the kind words about the podcast.

This week's isn't going to be ready to post for several days, but we're entering a section of Tusculan Disputations that brings the Epicurean objections to the positions taken by Stoics and others on many emotional questions into sharp focus.

Today we're adding a "News and Announcements" box to the front page. It will display the last 30 days worth of "News/Announcements" threads that have been posted by a moderator/admin. We intend to use this box to keep people up to date on site activities. The box points to a normal forum, so new posts in this box will generate a "red dot" on your notifications just like any other thread.

We didn't end up discussing it very much, but I highly recommend this video of a debate between Richard Dawkins and Lawrence Krauss on Krauss' book "Something From Nothing."

Thread

Video Discussion Between Richard Dawkins and Lawrence Krauss on the "Something From Nothing" Question

I have been meaning to make sure that this video was referenced somewhere in the forum. It's been years since I watched it but I recall it being very good on getting to the heart of the "something from nothing question" - with Richard Dawkins defending the traditional point of view identified with Epicurus:

youtube.com/watch?v=gH9UvnrARf8

Cassius

November 14, 2022 at 2:36 PM

In summary, my personal (admittedly untrained) view is that in this case as in others, the point being argued by Krauss is overstated. If I recall correctly, Dawkins does a good job of dragging out of Krauss that the "nothing" in Krauss's sensational book title isn't really "nothing" as a philsopher would mean it. Instead, what appears to us to be empty space contains energy/fields/forces or whatever. The Epicurean point would be that whatever the thing we're describing turns out to be, it is going to be "natural," and it's not going to be evidence of an intelligent-design-god that overturns the "matter and void" system. Just like throwing the spear shows that the universe has no terminating point, if something is proved to exist then that simply shows it has a natural fundamental basis, and it isn't going to be "infinitely divisible" so as to upend the fundamental world-view.

Quote from Rolf

My point, however, is less about this specific topic and more about scientific discoveries and consensus potentially being at odds with Epicurus’ physics. Don’s view is a valid one, and probably one I share, but I’m interested in hearing more perspectives on this.

I will look to see if we have prior threads on what happens when philosophy seems to conflict with science. I know the subject has come up regularly, but it tends to get buried with other topics.

But for now and in general, I don't think this apparent conflict is something new, and it existed to a degree even in Epicurus' time, on such issues as the calculations as to the size of the sun. In that case Epicurus can be made to look ridiculous in light of modern telescopes and observations, but he can also be defended as pointing to very reasonable caution about the implications of new methodology which might itself be incomplete. There's also a relationship here with Epicurus' refusal to accept a logical challenge that Metrodorus must be either alive or dead tomorrow.

We have a good thread on the size of the sun here.

And the subforum (which probably does not contain all the threads, some of which are buried in "general," is here:

Explaining Epicurus' Position On The "Size of the Sun" And Related Issues of Speculative Math / Geometry

Quote from Rolf

Fascinating! Does this mean that we as Epicureans would be wise to align ourselves with modern scientific understanding, adopt this view as the most probable explanation, and ditch the Epicurean view on static atoms and void

I don't think Bryan meant to imply that, If following dominant interpretations were always a good idea, Epicurus would have accepted intelligent design for his physics and we would all be Abrahamists today! 😀

Welcome dlippman

There is one last step to complete your registration:

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You must post your response within 24 hours, or your account will be subject to deletion.

Please say "Hello" by introducing yourself, tell us what prompted your interest in Epicureanism and which particular aspects of Epicureanism most interest you, and/or post a question.

This forum is the place for students of Epicurus to coordinate their studies and work together to promote the philosophy of Epicurus. Please remember that all posting here is subject to our Community Standards and associated Terms of Use. Please be sure to read that document to understand our ground rules.

Please understand that the leaders of this forum are well aware that many fans of Epicurus may have sincerely-held views of what Epicurus taught that are incompatible with the purposes and standards of this forum. This forum is dedicated exclusively to the study and support of people who are committed to classical Epicurean views. As a result, this forum is not for people who seek to mix and match Epicurean views with positions that are inherently inconsistent with the core teachings of Epicurus.

All of us who are here have arrived at our respect for Epicurus after long journeys through other philosophies, and we do not demand of others what we were not able to do ourselves. Epicurean philosophy is very different from most other philosophies, and it takes time to understand how deep those differences really are. That's why we have membership levels here at the forum which allow for new participants to discuss and develop their own learning, but it's also why we have standards that will lead in some cases to arguments being limited, and even participants being removed, when the purposes of the community require it. Epicurean philosophy is not inherently democratic, or committed to unlimited free speech, or devoted to any other form of organization other than the pursuit of truth and happy living through pleasure as explained in the principles of Epicurean philosophy.

One way you can be assured of your time here will be productive is to tell us a little about yourself and your background in reading Epicurean texts. It would also be helpful if you could tell us how you found this forum, and any particular areas of interest that you already have.

You can also check out our Getting Started page for ideas on how to use this website.

We have found over the years that there are a number of key texts and references which most all serious students of Epicurus will want to read and evaluate for themselves. Those include the following.

"Epicurus and His Philosophy" by Norman DeWitt

The Biography of Epicurus by Diogenes Laertius. This includes the surviving letters of Epicurus, including those to Herodotus, Pythocles, and Menoeceus.

"On The Nature of Things" - by Lucretius (a poetic abridgement of Epicurus' "On Nature"

"Epicurus on Pleasure" - By Boris Nikolsky

The chapters on Epicurus in Gosling and Taylor's "The Greeks On Pleasure."

Cicero's "On Ends" - Torquatus Section

Cicero's "On The Nature of the Gods" - Velleius Section

The Inscription of Diogenes of Oinoanda - Martin Ferguson Smith translation

A Few Days In Athens" - Frances Wright

Lucian Core Texts on Epicurus: (1) Alexander the Oracle-Monger, (2) Hermotimus

Philodemus "On Methods of Inference" (De Lacy version, including his appendix on relationship of Epicurean canon to Aristotle and other Greeks)

"The Greeks on Pleasure" -Gosling & Taylor Sections on Epicurus, especially the section on katastematic and kinetic pleasure which explains why ultimately this distinction was not of great significance to Epicurus.

It is by no means essential or required that you have read these texts before participating in the forum, but your understanding of Epicurus will be much enhanced the more of these you have read. Feel free to join in on one or more of our conversation threads under various topics found throughout the forum, where you can to ask questions or to add in any of your insights as you study the Epicurean philosophy.

And time has also indicated to us that if you can find the time to read one book which will best explain classical Epicurean philosophy, as opposed to most modern "eclectic" interpretations of Epicurus, that book is Norman DeWitt's Epicurus And His Philosophy.

(If you have any questions regarding the usage of the forum or finding info, please post any questions in this thread).

Welcome to the forum!

The "rage" probably implicates the discussion of the "good" vs "bad" types of anger in Philodemus and elsewhere. I can see the argument that being angry with your disease (or deterioration with age) would be of assistance in prolonging life and pleasure.

Welcome Ben Hari

There is one last step to complete your registration:

All new registrants must post a response to this message here in this welcome thread (we do this in order to minimize spam registrations).

You must post your response within 24 hours, or your account will be subject to deletion.

Please say "Hello" by introducing yourself, tell us what prompted your interest in Epicureanism and which particular aspects of Epicureanism most interest you, and/or post a question.

This forum is the place for students of Epicurus to coordinate their studies and work together to promote the philosophy of Epicurus. Please remember that all posting here is subject to our Community Standards and associated Terms of Use. Please be sure to read that document to understand our ground rules.

Please understand that the leaders of this forum are well aware that many fans of Epicurus may have sincerely-held views of what Epicurus taught that are incompatible with the purposes and standards of this forum. This forum is dedicated exclusively to the study and support of people who are committed to classical Epicurean views. As a result, this forum is not for people who seek to mix and match Epicurean views with positions that are inherently inconsistent with the core teachings of Epicurus.

All of us who are here have arrived at our respect for Epicurus after long journeys through other philosophies, and we do not demand of others what we were not able to do ourselves. Epicurean philosophy is very different from most other philosophies, and it takes time to understand how deep those differences really are. That's why we have membership levels here at the forum which allow for new participants to discuss and develop their own learning, but it's also why we have standards that will lead in some cases to arguments being limited, and even participants being removed, when the purposes of the community require it. Epicurean philosophy is not inherently democratic, or committed to unlimited free speech, or devoted to any other form of organization other than the pursuit of truth and happy living through pleasure as explained in the principles of Epicurean philosophy.

One way you can be assured of your time here will be productive is to tell us a little about yourself and your background in reading Epicurean texts. It would also be helpful if you could tell us how you found this forum, and any particular areas of interest that you already have.

You can also check out our Getting Started page for ideas on how to use this website.

We have found over the years that there are a number of key texts and references which most all serious students of Epicurus will want to read and evaluate for themselves. Those include the following.

"Epicurus and His Philosophy" by Norman DeWitt

The Biography of Epicurus by Diogenes Laertius. This includes the surviving letters of Epicurus, including those to Herodotus, Pythocles, and Menoeceus.

"On The Nature of Things" - by Lucretius (a poetic abridgement of Epicurus' "On Nature"

"Epicurus on Pleasure" - By Boris Nikolsky

The chapters on Epicurus in Gosling and Taylor's "The Greeks On Pleasure."

Cicero's "On Ends" - Torquatus Section

Cicero's "On The Nature of the Gods" - Velleius Section

The Inscription of Diogenes of Oinoanda - Martin Ferguson Smith translation

A Few Days In Athens" - Frances Wright

Lucian Core Texts on Epicurus: (1) Alexander the Oracle-Monger, (2) Hermotimus

Philodemus "On Methods of Inference" (De Lacy version, including his appendix on relationship of Epicurean canon to Aristotle and other Greeks)

"The Greeks on Pleasure" -Gosling & Taylor Sections on Epicurus, especially the section on katastematic and kinetic pleasure which explains why ultimately this distinction was not of great significance to Epicurus.

It is by no means essential or required that you have read these texts before participating in the forum, but your understanding of Epicurus will be much enhanced the more of these you have read. Feel free to join in on one or more of our conversation threads under various topics found throughout the forum, where you can to ask questions or to add in any of your insights as you study the Epicurean philosophy.

And time has also indicated to us that if you can find the time to read one book which will best explain classical Epicurean philosophy, as opposed to most modern "eclectic" interpretations of Epicurus, that book is Norman DeWitt's Epicurus And His Philosophy.

(If you have any questions regarding the usage of the forum or finding info, please post any questions in this thread).

Welcome to the forum!

And I'd say this Vatican Saying calls for comparison:

Quote

VS47. I have anticipated thee, Fortune, and entrenched myself against all thy secret attacks. And I will not give myself up as captive to thee or to any other circumstance; but when it is time for me to go, spitting contempt on life and on those who vainly cling to it, I will leave life crying aloud a glorious triumph-song that I have lived well.

I don't know anything about the context of Dylan Thomas or whether he's commented about what he means or any background. Anyone looked into the poem and found anything they'd care to recommend? All I know is that it is well known.

"do not go gentle" does not necessarily equate in my mind with "rage, rage, against..."

Let's do a separate thread on the Dylan Thomas poem:

Thread

Epicurus And The Dylan Thomas Poem - "Do Not Go Gentle Into That Good Night"

Don referenced this poem so maybe we should discuss it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Do_not_go…that_good_night

Cassius

July 6, 2025 at 8:55 AM

Don referenced this poem so maybe we should discuss it:

Do not go gentle into that good night - Wikipedia

Lots of interesting stuff there including the rage against the dying light which might need its own thread to analyze.

But I think we are establishing that drinking unmixed wine was known to be very dangerous and thus Epicurus would have known at the least that it might be fatal.

I personally would go further than Don in my conclusions at this point but that might mean diving into what the "rage against the dying light" really means.

At present I am mainly willing to say that there can come a time (mostly cases of clinically certain terminal highly painful disease combined with advanced age) when it can be a rational assessment to conclude that future pleasure is not worth the cost in pain.

That term toxic positivity deserves a 😀 but no doubt the problem is real - or a LACK of being real.

In this episode and probably the next, it will be good to remember these two Vatican Sayings, as they are directly relevant to Cicero's discussion of preparing for hardship and dealing with it.

VS47. I have anticipated thee, Fortune, and entrenched myself against all thy secret attacks. And I will not give myself up as captive to thee or to any other circumstance; but when it is time for me to go, spitting contempt on life and on those who vainly cling to it, I will leave life crying aloud a glorious triumph-song that I have lived well.

VS55. We must heal our misfortunes by the grateful recollection of what has been, and by the recognition that it is impossible to undo that which has been done

So you're reading that to mean that unmixed wine can kill(?), but Bryan I find Laertius' poem hard to decipher too. What is he saying - that he died unintentionally?

Bailey: 33. Justice never is anything in itself, but in the dealings of men with one another, in any place whatever, and at any time, it is a kind of compact not to harm or be harmed.

**ΟΥΚ ΗΝ TΙ ΚAΘ' EAΥTΟ ΔΙΚAΙΟΣΥΝΗ ****AΛΛ' EΝ TAΙΣ ΜET' **

**AΛΛΗΛΩΝ ΣΥΣTΡΟΦAΙΣ ****ΚAΘ' ΟΠΗΛΙΚΟΥΣ ****ΔΗ ΠΟTE AEΙ**

**TΟΠΟΥΣ ΣΥΝΘΗΚΗ ****TΙΣ ΥΠEΡ TΟΥ ΜΗ ΒΛAΠTEΙΝ ****Η**

**ΒΛAΠTEΣΘAΙ. **

“Justice has no independent existence; it results from mutual contracts, and establishes itself wherever there is a mutual engagement to guard against doing or sustaining mutual injury.” Yonge (1853)

“There never was an absolute justice, but only a convention made in mutual intercourse, in whatever region, from time to time, providing against the infliction or suffering of harm.” Hicks (1910)

“There never was an absolute justice, but only an agreement made in reciprocal intercourse in whatever localities now and again from time to time, providing against the infliction or suffering of harm.” Hicks (1925)

“Justice never is anything in itself, but in the dealings of men with one another in any place whatever and at any time is a kind of compact not to harm or be harmed.” Bailey (1926)

“There is no such thing as justice in the abstract; it is merely a compact between men in their various relations with each other, in whatever circumstances they may be, that they will neither injure nor be injured.” Geer (1964)

“Justice was never anything per se, but a contract, regularly arising at some place or other in people's dealings with one another, over not harming or being harmed.” Long, The Hellenistic Philosophers 125 (1987)

“There is no such thing as 'justice in itself'; it is, rather, always a certain compact made during men's dealings with one another in different places, not to do harm or to be harmed.” O'Connor (1993)

“Justice was not a thing in its own right, but [exists] in mutual dealings in whatever places there [is] a pact about neither harming one another nor being harmed.” Inwood & Gerson (1994)

“Absolute justice does not exist. There are only mutual agreements among men, made at various times and places, not to inflict nor allow harm.” Anderson (2004)

“Abstract justice in itself does not exist. Justice rather [comes into being only] in instances of reciprocal intercourse, applies specifically to this or that place [and time,] and consists in a covenanted agreement to refrain from inflicting harm for the sake of not having harm inflicted on oneself.” Makridis (2005)

“Justice does not exist in itself; instead, it is always a compact to not harm one another or be harmed, which is agreed upon by those who gather together at some time and place.” Saint-Andre (2008)

“Justice was never an entity in itself. It is a kind of agreement not to harm or be harmed, made when men associate with each other at any time and in communities of any size whatsoever.” Strodach (2012)

“Justice was not something in itself but existed in mutual relations wherever and whenever there was an agreement that provided against the inflicting or suffering of harm.” Mensch (2018)

“Justice was not anything in its own right, but rather a kind of agreement not to harm or be harmed in our dealings with one another within areas of whatever size they may be.”

Bailey: 32. For all living things which have not been able to make compacts not to harm one another, or be harmed, nothing ever is either just or unjust; and likewise, too, for all tribes of men which have been unable, or unwilling, to make compacts not to harm or be harmed.

**ΟΣA TΩΝ ΖῼΩΝ ****ΜΗ EΔΥΝATΟ ΣΥΝΘΗΚAΣ ΠΟΙEΙΣΘAΙ ****TAΣ**

**ΥΠEΡ TΟΥ ΜΗ ΒΛAΠTEΙΝ AΛΛA ΜΗΔE ΒΛAΠTEΣΘAΙ ****ΠΡΟΣ**

**TAΥTA ΟΥΘEΝ ****ΗΝ ΔΙΚAΙΟΝ ****ΟΥΔE AΔΙΚΟΝ·**** ΩΣAΥTΩΣ ΔE**

**ΚAΙ TΩΝ EΘΝΩΝ ****ΟΣA ΜΗ EΔΥΝATΟ ****Η ΜΗ EΒΟΥΛETΟ ****TAΣ**

**ΣΥΝΘΗΚAΣ ΠΟΙEΙΣΘAΙ ****TAΣ ΥΠEΡ TΟΥ ΜΗ ΒΛAΠTEΙΝ ΜΗΔE**

**ΒΛAΠTEΣΘAΙ. **

“Those animals which are unable to enter into an argument of this nature, or to guard against doing or sustaining mutual injury, have no such thing as justice or injustice. And the case is the same with those nations, the members of which are either unwilling or unable to enter into a covenant to respect their mutual interests.” Yonge (1853)

“Those animals which were incapable of making compacts with one another, to the end that they might neither inflict nor suffer harm, are without either justice or injustice. Similarly those tribes which either could not or would not form mutual covenants to the same end are in the like case.” Hicks (1910)

“Those animals which are incapable of making covenants with one another, to the end that they may neither inflict nor suffer harm, are without either justice or injustice. And those tribes which either could not or would not form mutual covenants to the same end are in like case.” Hicks (1925)

“For all living things which have not been able to make compacts not to harm one another or be harmed, nothing ever is either just or unjust; and likewise too for all tribes of men which have been unable or unwilling to make compacts not to harm or be harmed.” Bailey (1926)

“To all animate creatures that have been unable to make the covenants about not injuring one another or being injured nothing is just nor unjust either; this statement holds equally true for all human races that have been unable or unwilling to make the covenant about not injuring or being injured.” DeWitt, Epicurus and His Philosophy 295 (1954)

“There is no such thing as justice or injustice among those beasts that cannot make agreements not to injure or be injured. This is also true of those tribes that are unable or unwilling to make agreements not to injure or be injured.” Geer (1964)

“Nothing is just or unjust in relation to those creatures which were unable to make contracts over not harming one another and not being harmed: so too with all peoples which were unable or unwilling to make contracts over not harming and not being harmed.” Long, The Hellenistic Philosophers 125 (1987)

“For those living creatures that are unable to form compacts not to harm or harm others or to be harmed, there is neither justice nor injustice. It is the same for all tribes of men unable or unwilling to form compacts not to do harm or to be harmed.” O'Connor (1993)

“There was no justice or injustice with respect to all those animals which were unable to make pacts about neither harming one another nor being harmed. Similarly, [there was no justice or injustice] for all those nations which were unable or unwilling to make pacts about neither harming one another nor being harmed.” Inwood & Gerson (1994)

“For all living creatures incapable of making agreements not to harm one another, nothing is ever just or unjust; and so it is likewise for all tribes of men which have been unable or unwilling to make such agreements.” Anderson (2004)

“Some animals are incapable of entering into compacts that agree not to inflict harm in order to avoid suffering harm: in the cases of such animals neither moral right nor moral wrong can be said to apply. Similarly, there are communities which are either incapable or unwilling to make treaties that undertake not to inflict harm in order to avoid suffering harm: [in the cases of such communities, the concepts of moral right and moral wrong cannot be said to apply either.]” Makridis (2005)

“With regard to those animals that do not have the power of making a covenant to not harm one another or be harmed, there is neither justice nor injustice; similarly for those peoples who have neither the power nor the desire of making a covenant to not harm one another or be harmed.” Saint-Andre (2008)

“Nothing is either just or unjust in the eyes of those animals that have been unable to make agreements not to harm each other or be harmed. The same is true of those peoples who are unable or unwilling to make covenants not to be harm or be harmed.” Strodach (2012)

“Those animals incapable of making agreements with one another, that they may neither inflict nor suffer harm, are without justice or injustice. The same is true of peoples who are unable or unwilling to make such agreements.” Mensch (2018)

“There was nothing just or unjust regarding any animals that were unable to make agreements not to harm others or be harmed; and likewise among any culture that were unable or unwilling to make agreements not to harm or be harmed.” White (2021)