Guilty conscience in Epicurean justice.

Good issue for thought. My first thoughts:

Quote from wbernys

the perhaps downplayed it because "guilt-driven" morality was mostly framed in a religious context like with Stoic and Platonist talk of violating divine reason and "feeling of guilt" not being universal enough for him (obviously psychopaths and masochists exist)

I wouldn't think the universality or lack thereof would have been as central. More central would be - as you mention - the falsity of the religious / divine reason context of "guilt." I don't think Epicurus would embrace something he knew to be false regardless of its alleged practical benefits. And Diogenes of Oinoanda makes pretty much the exact point that the threats of religion do not in fact work out in practice.

From an Epicurean perspective, a guilty conscience may be considered a preconception if it has arisen from socialization in one's group and not from religious indoctrination. Such a preconception may be more efficient than fear of punishment.

I think this is a very good topic. Let's be careful and stay away from hot-button modern political issues but I do think it's important to distinguish the type of activity we're talking about feeling guilty about. "Disobeying god" would be a cause of feeling guilt that would be rejectable by an Epicurean out of hand.

On the other hand causing certain kinds of unnecessary pain to someone else whom you value would likely be much more clearly a reason to feel bad oneself in a way that could be labeled "feeling guilty." "Guilt" in the sense of "blame" makes sense to me and "praise and blame" seems to be such a common situation that it is mentioned in the letter to Menoeceus.

Quote from wbernys

Agreed but with that said do you think a "feeling of guilt/disgust/shame" is something an Epicurean can hold as a genuine reason for virtuous activity

Absolutely.

We define virtue as a good used to achieve the goal of pleasure, and we recognize virtuous behavior as acting "practically, properly, and peaceably" (KD5). Practicing these virtues requires choice and avoidance, like avoiding things that lead to guilt, so avoiding guilt is definitely virtuous because it is a choice made to reduce pain and maximize pleasure, which is the goal of life. I'd put it right up there with avoiding doom-scrolling and yelling and political commentators on cable.

Quote from wbernys

moral progress often takes so long, disgust or shame at the idea of breaking tradition, race mixing, irreligiousity, or not being "patriotic enough", making it a real double edged sword.

I watched this documentary on Netflix last night about child abuse in Utah ... the bottom-line is that the perpetrators were controlling mothers and fathers by manipulating their religious guilt (over really inconsequential things like masturbating and looking at adult porn), and had those people surrender their children... AND THEY DID! Watching it, I couldn't decide if I was angrier at the vicious abusers, or their weak parents. Guilt was central in all of this, and a special kind of false, religious guilt, unjustified, but strongly felt, and it lead to actual crimes against children.

Even then, though, a proper analysis of guilt could have revealed that the religion is bunk. If you have guilt over an objectively non-harmful action, it's time for some therapy. Proper therapy would have revealed that the judgy messages from religion are harmful, not masturbating. Thorough analysis would also have questioned the methods of the abusers, rather than conform. I think the trick is in determining if your feeling of guilt is justified, or if you've been gaslit. That's tricky.

...and as far as gaslighting goes, that's how I'd describe the other activities to which I think you are alluding. It's tough to be racist when nature finds diversity attractive, and it's tough to be bigoted when nature finds novelty exciting, and it's tough to be violent when nature finds peace preferable. Nature is constantly overriding everyone's learned prejudice. Pornhub reminds us of this every year in that each State's political prejudices are usually subverted by their closet fetishes.

Brainwashing and gaslighting are pervasive, and brutally effective, so, even more important than just "following your nose", so to speak, or listening to your gut, is sober analysis. We can rely on the reality of our feelings, but not necessarily their truthfulness. We need the mind for that.

Quote from Eikadistes

We define virtue as a good used to achieve the goal of pleasure, and we recognize virtuous behavior as acting "practically, properly, and peaceably" (KD5). Practicing these virtues requires choice and avoidance, like avoiding things that lead to guilt, so avoiding guilt is definitely virtuous because it is a choice made to reduce pain and maximize pleasure, which is the goal of life.

The underlined part of this quote is, for me, the key point. Guilt is experienced as pain. In evaluating the pleasures v the pains in any particular activity, if there is the potential for feeling guilt we would need to include that in our analysis.

VS71: Ask this question of every desire: what will happen to me if the object of desire is achieved, and what if not?