Sunday November 9, 2025 - Zoom Discussion 12:30 PM EST - Epicurus on Good And Evil

    Quote from DaveT

    For me, as I learn more about Epicureanism, I identify with most of the tetrapharmikos.

    There is nothing to fear from gods or natural phenomenon, yes.

    There is no afterlife of which to be suspicious, yes.

    And Pleasure is easy to obtain, yes, but it's hard to measure.

    while Pain can be easily endured, no, I'm not willing to acknowledge that this is a universal truth.

    The problem in my view is not with the germ of thought that apparently gave rise to the phrasing of the fourth of the statements, but that the formulation makes it look like a claim to being an oracular claim to revealed universal truth when the full wording of PD04 is much more realistic and practical.

    As bad or worse is that isolating it in this way strips the statement of its context. I'm convinced the context is the very stark question of "how can you be sure that you'll remain happy when the evils of the body and external evils are not within your complete control. That's the challenge that they were answering, such as in the way that Cicero framed it in Part 5 of Tusculan Disputations:

    Quote

    And this very thing, too, Metrodorus has said, but in better language: “I have anticipated you, Fortune; I have caught you, and cut off every access, so that you cannot possibly reach me.” This would be excellent in the mouth of Aristo the Chian, or Zeno the Stoic, who held nothing to be an evil but what was base; but for you, Metrodorus, to anticipate the approaches of fortune, who confine all that is good to your bowels and marrow,—for you to say so, who define the chief good by a strong constitution of body, and a well assured hope of its continuance,—for you to cut off every access of fortune? Why, you may instantly be deprived of that good. Yet the simple are taken with these propositions, and a vast crowd is led away by such sentences to become their followers.

    Cicero may deride this as simplistic snake-oil that takes in the unsophisticated, but PD04 is very reasonable and unchallengable. Moderate pains can be lived with, and if pains get so bad we can't live with them and don't go away, we ourselves have the remedy in that we can terminate our lives. In no way does pain have the ability to hold us in its grip forever. We are in control, not pain. Metrodorus' formulation explains the calculation, especially when it is given in FULL:

    Quote

    VS47. I have anticipated thee, Fortune, and entrenched myself against all thy secret attacks. And I will not give myself up as captive to thee or to any other circumstance; but when it is time for me to go, spitting contempt on life and on those who vainly cling to it, I will leave life crying aloud a glorious triumph-song that I have lived well.


    And that's why I see Dave's concern , which is so often shared by others, The Tetrapharmakon serves well as a memory device for educated Epicureans, but others who throw it around without knowing the full ideas that it outlines are often woefully misinterpreting it.

    And to repeat for Dave and for lurkers, you NEVER hear the Tetrapharmakon formulation stated by Epicurus, or by Lucretius, or by DIogenes of Oinoanda, or by anyone else whose text is expansive and fully-preserved and completely clear.

    The hazard is exactly what we see Dave stating. Dave thinks he has to reject something that he believes to be a well established and core statement of Epicurean doctrine when it is not.

    Here's a much better example of the way to understand this issue as stated by an articulate Roman Epicurean in 50 BC.

    After over a hundred years of thinking about what Epicurus taught, you can place the key ideas in the context of how the wise man is always happy. Cicero identifies in Tusculan Disputations that how the wise man is in fact always happy is the most important question in philosophy.

    The point about pain is not to callously say that what is terrible is "easy to endure," but that pain ultimately has no unbreakable power over us because it is almost always manageable, and when it is truly not manageable we can always defeat it by departing from life:

    Quote from Torquatus in On Ends Book 1

    XIX. At the same time this Stoic doctrine can be stated in a form which we do not object to, and indeed ourselves endorse. For Epicurus thus presents his Wise Man who is always happy: (3) his desires are kept within bounds; (2) death he disregards; (1) he has a true conception, untainted by fear, of the Divine nature; (4) he does not hesitate to depart from life, if that would better his condition. Thus equipped he enjoys perpetual pleasure, for there is no moment when the pleasures he experiences do not outbalance the pains; since he remembers the past with gratitude, grasps the present with a full realization of its pleasantness, and does not rely upon the future; he looks forward to it, but finds his true enjoyment in the present.


    And I would agree with the thrust of Don's comments that it does indeed appear that the Epicureans saw these four aspects as particularly important. But the four have to be stated clearly in order to be persuasive.

    Here they are again in different order stated in much more full terms from earlier in On Ends:

    Quote

    XII. Again, the truth that pleasure is the supreme good can be most easily apprehended from the following consideration. (3) Let us imagine an individual in the enjoyment of pleasures great, numerous and constant, both mental and bodily, with no pain to thwart or threaten them; I ask what circumstances can we describe as more excellent than these or more desirable? A man whose circumstances are such must needs possess, as well as other things, a robust mind subject to no fear of death or pain, because (2) death is apart from sensation, and (4) pain when lasting is usually slight, when oppressive is of short duration, so that its temporariness reconciles us to its intensity, and its slightness to its continuance. When in addition we suppose that such a man is (1) in no awe of the influence of the gods, and does not allow his past pleasures to slip away, but takes delight in constantly recalling them, what circumstance is it possible to add to these, to make his condition better?


    So there's plenty of information from which to flesh out the full meaning of the fourth item of the list without just saying "what's terrible is easy to endure." Cicero is using the same grouping of four to identify the best way of life / how the wise man is always happy.

    Cassius I appreciate your effort to provide citations that you hope will clarify my understanding of the doctrines. But on this topic of pain/pleasure in the Tetrapharmakon, they are not persuasive. Since I've survived more than 3/4 of a century, my past experiences tell me that generalized doctrines expressed in the language of absolutes don't always hold up as universal truths.

    I know personally, and have seen innumerable times that the following assertion is not true. "4) pain when lasting is usually slight," it is not usually slight. Sometimes it is, but not usually.

    And further, the quote that [pain] "when oppressive is of short duration, so that its temporariness reconciles us to its intensity,..." Again, sometimes, but as a premise to further doctrinal beliefs, it can't believably be stated as a universal truth.

    And, I have to say that the earlier quote that when pain is oppressive: "4) he does not hesitate to depart from life, if that would better his condition." Really? Being dead betters one's condition? Sure, it stops the pain, but you're dead!

    I don't object to a person making a rational, competent decision to end their life, even absent pain or suffering. However, those quoted thoughts, as a proof that there is a good alternative for one pursuing happiness if their severe pain lasts beyond a short time and it is "oppressive", seems to me to be a superficial and dismissive attitude by those speakers. This, I think, is especially so to someone who tries to bear chronic pain, or to cope with ongoing knowledge that their unstoppable progressive disease is making them less and less able to live like they used to live, someone who tries to find some modicum of daily joy, but doesn't want to call it quits. That suffering person, seems to me to be far more common than someone who is willing to take the needle and end it all. So, Epicureans must speak to this person, too, rather than offering them the choice to commit suicide if you are struggling to find pleasure.

    Does this appear to be disdainful of the entire tetrapharmikos? Perhaps to some, but not to me.

    Dave Tamanini

    Harrisburg, PA, USA

    DaveT On one point Epicureanism recognizes Pain as the core evil, on the other it wants to give help, ideas, techniques against it. So I can understand the irritation that than it is stated that Pain is not really a problem (maybe only meant for the Epicurean Sage or an irrational Fear of Pain ? )

    What is your attitude towards pain? Or rather, what would be a healthy or resilient attitude towards pain in life?

    How justified do you see the fear of pain ?

    I ´ve read even an article that for natural/necessary desires it is right for an Epicurean to fear Pain for such desires. Otherwise one of the natural/necessary desires is the desire for eudaimonia/ataraxia, so to have no or very less fears.

    Is the potential amount of pain in life too great ? What should we conclude then from this insight ?

    What would you advice ?

    I want to add for limit of pain ( maybe more for slight pain or mental pain ) the hedonic tresdmill for pain, with also Epicurean advice in it :

    Hedonic Treadmill
    The hedonic treadmill is the idea that an individual's level of happiness, after rising or falling in response to positive or negative life events, ultimately…
    www.psychologytoday.com

    So I think now we can consult the worst health systems in the world: Suffering ? Wait, take drugs or go dying 🙃🤣😅

    The article "Hedonic Treadmill" presents some good to know items but falls short of sound advice.
    "Given that set points are not always fixed, a person may also be able to reset it in a positive direction through persistent behaviors such as pursuing altruistic goals."
    This is a red flag for BS. Pursuing altruistic goals for an extended period of time is a recipe for burn-out, superiority complex and other disasters.
    An alternative usage of the term "hedonic treadmill" refers to seeking out ever "higher" thrills, which becomes counterproductive. Apparently, some introductory courses to philosophy try to use this to reject all hedonic philosophies. The Epicurean answer to that is to use prudence to avoid getting on the hedonic treadmill in that alternative usage. "Hedonic adaptation" is the better word for what the article means with "hedonic treadmill".

    Talk of the hedonic treadmill reminded me of Dr. Anna Lembke's book Dopamine Nation: Finding Balance in the Age of Indulgence. Here's an interview with the author on NPR's Fresh Air:

    https://www.npr.org/transcripts/1030930259

    She brings up overindulgence, homeostasis, addiction. I brought up the book several years ago, so I'm sure if you search the title there's a thread on the forum.

    Matteng this quote from the Hedonic Treadmill article is good:

    Quote

    one potential way to keep happiness from fading is to mix up the elements of one’s positive experiences so that they are less repetitive. Another approach is to try to appreciate such experiences even more by making an effort to pay attention to and savor what is enjoyable about them.

    I personally feel like the concept of a "hedonic treadmill" is not helpful. Instead just think about how you want to move toward happiness (and enjoyment) and away from pain, and that it is a learning process that occurs through trial and error. Then, over time as you get older you become wiser and your happiness levels increase.

    And this is: VS17. "It is not the young man who should be thought [most] happy, but the old man who has lived a good life. For the young man at the height of his powers is unstable, and is carried this way and that by fortune, like a headlong stream. But the old man has come to anchor in old age, as though in port, and the good things for which before he hardly hoped he has brought into safe harbor in his grateful recollections."

    And from Letter to Menoeceus: "...Wherefore both when young and old a man must study philosophy, that as he grows old he may be young in blessings through the grateful recollection of what has been, and that in youth he may be old as well, since he will know no fear of what is to come. We must then meditate on the things that make our happiness, seeing that when that is with us we have all, but when it is absent we do all to win it."

    The young man will learn much sooner what brings a life of happiness (through the study of philosophy).

    My advice to anyone enduring extended suffering mentally, or experiencing ongoing significant physical pain is to share it. By this I mean, tell someone you love or trust about your situation. For those of us who have the means in WEIRD societies (western educated industrialized rich and democratic) or who have state provided care, "get professional help" can ease the burden sometimes. But for them, and most of the rest of the world; loved ones and trusted ones may help too, in the absence of professional care.

    For me, the realistic goal is to experience living with more contentment (read as pleasure by the Epicurean) than pain/suffering. To try to attain the former permanently, or to banish the latter completely is unrealistic, perhaps a further cause of suffering, yet completely Epicurean, when you think about it.

    How one might do it for themselves, during self talk, is a more individualized task, and if one technique works for a while, and then doesn't, my advice is keep exploring alternatives until you improve and can enjoy life better.

    Dave Tamanini

    Harrisburg, PA, USA

    Quote from Matteng

    My thoughts regarding Pain:

    1. Difference between faculty of Pain (and Pleasure ) and Painful things/situation/ ideas.
    The faculty is there to protect us, born from evolutionary self-preservation.

    Matteng

    Thanks for this outline of your thoughts on pain. I agree with your point that pain is there to protect us. Have you considered pain as Nature’s method to guide us back to our intended, normal, simple mode of operation for our mind & body. The more often and most efficiently we can operate without pain (of mind or body) the more likely we are to live more healthy, which is self preservation.

    Patrikios

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