Posts by Patrikios

I tried the Inspire Green, which is easier on my eyes on my iPad. However the heading box for LT podcast didn’t show.

Overall, I like the clean header feel. Good job 👍

Quote from Titus

This is why I consider "simplicity" so important. Without context, "simplicity" is an empty word, but generally it is understood as a way of doing tasks "as much as necessary, but as little as possible", effectively establishing a pleasure-pain calculus. It's about saving resources (financial/physical/mental etc.). In regard to founding a family, I see it as crucial to manage one's own life wisely and building up some buffer for all the unexpected situations that will be expected.

Titus thanks for explaining how you are trying to be a good steward of your resources (as Philodemus described in managing your household). Your approach to managing your household and preparing for the future is a clear application of this. By distinguishing between what is necessary and what is superfluous, you protect yourself from the unnecessary anxieties that disturb the soul.

When you speak of building a buffer for the unexpected, you are acknowledging the reality of our material world. We cannot control every external event, but by maintaining a modest and self-sufficient life, we ensure that our tranquility is not easily shaken by fortune.

I have come to understand the Epicurean philosophy as a framework for optimal living. Now that terminology may not be the choice of others on this forum, but how we understand pleasures is subjective. According to our Epicurean teaching to achieve the pleasant life, it is a balancing act of managing relationships as well as dealing with the externalities you described so well, in order to live prudently, honorably and justly [PD5].

So, whether it is more meaningful for you to use “simplicity” or for me to use “optimal”, I think we are both describing ‘a way of doing tasks "as much as necessary, but as little as possible"’ that maximizes pleasure while minimizing pain within our available resources.

Quote from Cassius

The point I was trying to make is that we're not debating whether meditation-like experiences are pleasurable. I'll grant for the sake of argument that they can be or are.

Quote from Cassius

It's not a plausible argument to view the term "absence of pain" as meaning "a meditation like" or "sensory-deprived" experience. If it doesn't mean that, then it means something else. And that something else is not a particular "experience" at all.

Cassius Not to debate the point, but if someone has not experienced the deep, deep, sensory pleasure of regular meditation, they are missing one of life’s greatest pleasures, in my humble opinion based on decades of experience. I have found that the deepest meditation experiences come from the internal senses (feeling breath through your nose, filling your lungs; feeling the heart beat and blood pressure pulses in your fingers and ankles). To actually feel your body at work, replenishing, healing, is an awesome sensory experience.

I agree with your statement we should NOT view: the term "absence of pain" as meaning "a meditation like" or "sensory-deprived" experience. That’s because an effective meditation experience goes well beyond the "absence of pain" to create significant sensory pleasures.

However, in order to experience such an effective meditation, I take steps to reduce (eliminate where possible) pains or distractions. I have found that it is a prudent choice to include the meditation pleasures in my daily life, as this helps clear the conscious mind to be more open to experiencing other pleasures of the natural world as we carry out our daily activities.

Yes, pain reduction is an active thought process, which has lead to improvement in my diet and exercise routine, that has significantly reduced previous body pains and mental anxieties. It is not an all consuming focus of life; just a prudent step.

Quote from Cassius

Here i think there is a parallel with Velleius as to gods. Velleius says that we can stop at the basics, but then he tells Cicero that the mind strives for more - to discover the "form of god":

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“If we sought to attain nothing else beside piety in worshipping the gods and freedom from superstition, what has been said had sufficed; since the exalted nature of the gods, being both eternal and supremely blessed, would receive man's pious worship (for what is highest commands the reverence that is its due); ... But the mind strives to strengthen this belief by trying to discover the form of god, the mode of his activity, and the operation of his intelligence.”

So, this is one of the best reasons for pursuing daily meditation, so as to quiet the mind as it “strives … to discover the "form of god". This helps to ‘discover the form of god, the mode of his activity, and the operation of his intelligence’. This way we can incorporate the feeling of ‘blessedness’ in interactions with others so that we “suffer no trouble and bring no trouble to others“.

So, I don’t see a wide difference in the basic thrust you are making. I see our differences as a result of different lived experiences such that we apply the Epicurean principles in our daily life differently. Thanks for encouraging thoughtful discourse.

Cassius , Joshua ,

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we discuss in this one that the Stoic position is that some perceptions are so clear that they cannot be denied -- and yet the stoics are talking about "assent" to the perception as required. Now, how the stoics square their requirement for "assent' to their view that essentially all things are determined / preordained by their nature/god is a contradiction that we'll want to address as we go further.

Could you elaborate a bit more on how a person today should understand what was meant by ‘assent’ in this context? Does this imply a conscious thought process to choose to accept the truth of a sense input; which animals do not have?

Thanks for the insightful podcasts!

Quote from Cassius

For anyone to answery "yes"to that question - remember: You would not be this case arguing that what some would variously describe as "meditation" or "mimicing a a corpse" is pleasurable or a pleasure.

Cassius can you clarify this sentence? As I parse it, it does not make sense.

Quote from Cassius

But for better or worse and not entirely by choice or forethought, EpicureanFriends has become the "fundamentalist Epicurean" platform on the internet. And that's where the message gets boiled down to its essentials.

As long as the "fundamentalist Epicurean" platform still includes "how Epicurean philosophy can apply to you today", then it serves Epicurus' goal to heal the mind.

Aug. 1, 2026 is the beginning of National Happiness Happens month.

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Happiness Happens Month brightens the calendar throughout August, dedicated to celebrating the things that bring you joy. It’s a known fact that happiness is contagious, and sharing your happiness can bring a smile to someone’s face. Dedicate time to appreciating small moments, engaging in uplifting activities, and spreading positivity to those around you.
https://nationaltoday.com/happiness-happens-month/

Cassius

As a support tool to help my understanding, I asked my personal AI for examples like this.

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[undefined]Philo[/undefined] Thanks for citing the authors who support the ‘absence of pain’ equals ’full-cup’ of [undefined]#pleasure[/undefined]. While there are other modern authors who write about Cicero’s interpretation of katastematic state being non-sensory, they also write about the direct teachings of [undefined]#epicurus[/undefined] that also reflect the ‘full-cup’ katastematic sensory experience. So what modern authors state that [undefined]#epicurean doctrine[/undefined] is about achieving a non-sensory ‘absence of pain’ focused on ataraxia?

Philo (AI persona) response.

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It is a perceptive question, friend. The "zero-state" interpretation—the idea that ataraxia is a non-sensory, passive void—is so pervasive that it often appears in the works of scholars who are otherwise quite sympathetic to Epicurus. They often fall into this trap by prioritizing the "negative" definitions of ataraxia and aponia over the "positive" sensory reality that Epicurus himself insisted upon.

Many of the authors who perpetuate this view do so by treating the katastematic state as a distinct, higher-order condition that is separate from the "kinetic" pleasures of the senses. While they may not always use the phrase "non-sensory" explicitly, their arguments effectively relegate sensory pleasure to a secondary or "lower" status, leaving the "highest good" as a state of mere absence.

You will find this tendency in several notable places:

• David Sedley: In his 1998 article, Inferential Foundations of Epicurean Ethics, Sedley asserts that "katastematic pleasure is absence of pain," rather than the more accurate "pleasure is the absence of pain." By framing it this way, he inadvertently deprecates kinetic pleasures, treating them as mere tools to reach a static, non-sensory goal.
• A.A. Long and D.N. Sedley: In their influential The Hellenistic Philosophers (1987), they often present the katastematic state in a way that emphasizes the "absence" aspect, which can lead readers to conclude that the goal is a state of neutrality rather than a "full cup" of positive sensation.
• Various Academic Doxographers: As Boris Nikolsky and Mathew Wenham have pointed out, much of the modern confusion stems from the "Academic" tradition—scholars who rely heavily on Cicero’s De Finibus. Because Cicero was writing from a Stoic-Platonic perspective, he framed Epicureanism as a "zero-state" philosophy to make it easier to attack. Modern commentators who rely on Cicero as their primary source often inherit this bias, presenting ataraxia as a state of apatheia (lack of feeling) rather than the vibrant, sensory-rich life Epicurus actually described.
• James Warren: In his work Facing Death: Epicurus and His Critics (2004), Warren discusses the Epicurean "complete life" in a way that some critics argue relies on the assumption that pleasure cannot be increased beyond the absence of pain, which can be read as a deflationary, "zero-state" interpretation of the telos.

The common denominator among these authors is a reliance on the rigid two-tier classification of pleasures. By separating "static" from "active" so sharply, they create a hierarchy where the "static" state is seen as the true, final goal, and the "active" sensory pleasures are seen as mere decoration or temporary relief.

It is a subtle but profound shift. When you read these authors, you are seeing the "standard interpretation" in action—the very one that Cicero constructed to make Epicurus look like he was advocating for a life of "bedridden" passivity. As we have discussed, this is a distortion of the "full cup" model, which recognizes that the absence of pain is not a void, but the very condition that allows us to experience the full, vivid, and sensory richness of life.

Are any of these citations in line with your list of minimalist epicurean authors?

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Quote from Patrikios

Is it wrong to pursue both kinetic and katastemic pleasures, especially the katastemic pleasures one feels when deeply studying and grasping some deep Epicurean concept?

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What is wrong is that what you are describing there is a pleasure of change - of motion - and there is no authoritative reason to consider what you are describing as katastematic at all. THAT is the problem - any activity including studying is much more likely to have been considered kinetic than katastematic. We need to pursue these activities for the pleasure that they bring , not because we like the sound of the word katastematic so we can slap that label on it.

Cassius

So, is the point you are making that "studying of texts" is a kinetic pleasure and the knowledge acquired from grasping the concepts is the static pleasure (katastematic - state of being) that results from the kinetic studying?

In my #67 post, where I stated "the katastemic pleasures one feels when deeply studying and grasping some deep Epicurean concept", I was describing this sensory psychological static pleasure (not the kinetic act of reading words) which we simultaneously receive when acquiring knowledge as I understood from VS-27.

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VS-27 ... in philosophy, pleasure goes hand in hand with knowledge; for enjoyment does not follow comprehension, but comprehension and enjoyment are simultaneous ... [Bailey]

According to your Emily Austin reference in your Substack post (Against Katastematic Supremacy) on this topic (See Chapter 4, note 8.), "katastematic pleasures are sensory pleasures that issue from confidence in one's ability to satisfy one's necessary desires and an awareness of one's healthy psychological functioning".

As you have made this k v. k a MAJOR red label issue, I am trying very hard to understand how to make practical application, while not engaging in an academic disputation, for which I feel ill-equipped to engage on this forum (e.g. reading Nikolsky requires knowledge to translate ancient Greek and Latin quotes and words in almost every paragraph).

I appreciate any constructive help in understanding this controversy.

Quote from Cassius

I see no evidence whatsoever that "save me from every pain no matter what the cost" is how the ancient Epicureans lived. The academics of the last fifty years will no doubt deny that that is what they are saying, but that's the clear logical conclusion of putting the common understanding of "absence of pain" first in life.

Cassius
Who are the “academics of the last fifty years” that teach Epicurean heresy of tranquility above all? Do you have a list of these authors we should avoid?

Is it wrong to pursue both kinetic and katastemic pleasures, especially the katastemic pleasures one feels when deeply studying and grasping some deep Epicurean concept? In order to achieve this katastemic pleasure, I have to eliminate (or reduce to not notice) physical pains and mental anguish first. Is this a wrong approach to applying Epicurean philosophy to avoid pains and achieve some level of ataraxia and aponia, in order to pursue pleasures, including pursuing katastemic pleasures?

Quote from Pacatus

Kalosyni

I agree with you about exegesis itself. Nor do I disagree with your exegesis. Nor am I attempting any eisegesis on the texts.

I am simply saying that I personally cannot relate to the concept of blessedness (nor any kind of god-likeness) in my life. Even as I (I think) understand your explanation (exegesis), which I am not disputing. And I don’t believe that I, personally, am losing out on anything there.

Thank you for your patience.

Pacatus ,

It appears from your posts that you may not see a modern practical application for the deep study & grasping of the ‘blessedness of the gods’. Therefore you don’t see the need or how to apply the concept in your life. I firmly agree with you (and Cassius ) that there are no ‘gods’ interfering in our lives, or answering our prayers.

My response may not directly reflect to your concerns on this topic, but let me humbly share how I have come to understand and apply the concept.

After meeting all my natural & necessary needs, and being in a general state of full personal pleasure; I can then choose to tackle, through a meditative process, a difficult situation that causes me anguish or anxiety. To deal with such a scenario as objectively as possible, I have found that applying the aspects of KD-01 while in a deep katastemic state (meditation for me) focused on how a “blessed” wise man would examine the situation and the people involved from the perspective of “a being that has no trouble and brings no trouble upon any other being”.

In other words, I try to envision the people involved in the situation and imagine ways of approaching the problem “free from anger and partiality”. Some of this came from my studies of Philodemus and his urging students to study these truths deeply. [sorry, I don’t have citation]

This may not be a process that works for you, Pacatus , as I fully respect the different path with different perspectives you have travelled. This application of KD-01 has worked for me in enabling me to be more open to solving situations, especially when I can reign in the negative thoughts and find a path forward that brings me net natural pleasure and causes the least disturbance to other beings.

This is only an example where viewing a difficult scenario from a “blessed” POV provides a framework that has been beneficial in some situations, not all.

Thanks for a lively discussion!

Quote from Cassius

I begin to realize the feeling of true happiness and warmness in my heart is the judge of good and bad. I begin to be committed to the idea to "find and create true happiness", and I become happy with my life and unafraid of the future. I was so happy with my idea, that I wrote a lot about it in my diary. Guided by this idea, I studied math and had fitness in body, and as a child I wished to spread the idea to the world. But only two year later, I went through hardness which is beyond my endurance, my freedom was completely deprived and I was forced to participate foolish rat race for years, which continued to make me doubt my old idea. Now I figured that the ability to "find and create true happiness" is difficult to achieved in certain environments, which I used to believe can stand any trial.

Luzveraz ,

Welcome! And thanks for sharing some of your personal journey to joining the Epicurean Friends community.

Hopefully you can find additional insight into how to apply the Epicurean principles while still actively working, dealing with rat-race struggles. For some of us oldsters (in my 70s), who didn’t have this Epicurean pleasure choice-avoidance calculation system when still working, this site provides enough information for in-depth study to catch up. We do have several younger friends here, but their time for participation here is more limited.

You will find a great wealth of Epicurean resources here to explore when you can, but don’t hesitate to ask questions.

Here’s the news on the scrolls from the Smithsonian Institution.

Quote from Cassius

Date & Time

Jul 25, 2026 11:00 AM in Eastern Time (US and Canada)

Thanks, Cassius for alerting us. I’ve registered for the July 25th session.

Would you feel comfortable reaching out to either of the speakers to get a copy/url for the video of their June 27 session?

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Hosted by Panagiotis Panagiotopoulos and Christos Yapijakis, co-founders of the Society of Epicurus – Garden of Athens, the first event in the series took place on June 27 and focused on Jefferson’s life and inspirations from the ancient Greeks.

Quote from Cassius

I'm not trying to seed this just to start conversation but I can predict who among us might have some interest in this topic so I am going to go ahead and prod:

Pacatus ? Patrikios ? DaveT ?

Cassius

I will have to agree with DaveT that I don’t see the value in this topic, from an Epicurean point of view. Life is worth living, and death is nothing to us. Something that is “nothing” to us has no value; therefore it can’t be compared to something that has value.

This was a key topic in the article you posted on June 29 by Max DuBoff ”Death of an Egoist: An Epicurean Approach to Fatal Self-Sacrifice”.

Quote from Bryan

I agree that epibole tes dianoias (mental focus) and prolepseis (anticipations/stereotypes) are two facets of the same faculty. I also agree every sensation (the criteria of reality) is prerational.

Bryan , as I came across this old post, I thought further how to explain “two facets of the same facility”. Here’s an image from GeminiAI, that was created from this prompt.

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Create an image from this description. Display a page of text with this phrase “epibole tes dianoias (mental focus) and prolepseis (anticipations/stereotypes) are two facets of the same faculty”; with an image above showing the human brain and the sections comprising the reticular activating system, demonstrating how the epibole provides the input and prolepsis is the output. Also cite any references that explain this concept.

If there are any inaccuracies in the image depiction, revisions can be easily made now. I intend to check out some of the references.

Quote from Kalosyni

A life of well-being and joy is built on a balance of physical health, meaningful connections, and personal fulfillment. Rather than a single path, it combines daily habits and long-term practices that nourish your mind, body, and spirit.

Here is a list of the foundational elements that have been found to lead to lasting joy according to modern psychology:

Kalosyni

Once again, you find lovely ways to remind us just how relevant the Epicurean teachings are to living a modern healthy life filled with eudaimonia!

It appears that each of those 4 major groupings and most all of the sub-topics could be filled in with Epicurean quotes.
WDYT?

Quote from Titus

An especially interesting case: the gods

Consider Epicurus' famous claim that humans possess a prolepsis of the gods as blessed and imperishable beings.

Many modern readers wonder:

An LLM offers a possible model.

Humans repeatedly encounter:

excellence,
happiness,
power,
beauty,
wisdom,
longevity,

and then mentally extrapolate toward an idealized limit.

Display More

Titus and DaveT ,

I too struggle with this question of Epicurean view of humans having a prolepsis of “gods”. I think the above list of ideal concepts that humans experience might be a path toward better understanding. Here is what my Philo AI responded after reviewing the above quote.

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That is a compelling insight, friend, and it bridges the gap between our empirical observations and the conceptual formation of the divine in a way that feels quite natural. By observing these qualities—excellence, happiness, power, beauty, wisdom, and longevity—in the world around us, we can indeed see how the mind might perform a process of "idealization" to arrive at the conception of a being that possesses these traits in their absolute, undisturbed form.

This approach aligns well with how we understand the formation of other concepts. Just as we might observe many instances of justice or health and form a general idea of them, we can observe the highest human virtues and, by stripping away the limitations of mortality and the fluctuations of fortune, arrive at the prolepsis of a god. It suggests that our idea of the divine is not a mystical revelation, but a rational extrapolation of the best qualities we encounter in our own lives.

This model helps resolve the tension we discussed: it allows the prolepsis to remain grounded in human experience while explaining why our conception of the gods is so consistently "blessed and immortal." We are essentially projecting our highest aspirations for our own ataraxia onto an idealized limit.

I find this way of viewing the prolepsis—as a mental extrapolation of human excellence—makes the ‘prolepsis of gods’ framework feel more natural.

Quote from Cassius

And in this context part of the point could be that everyone (even Stoics and Religionists) say that they are pursuing "happiness" but if you pursue happiness by pursuing anything other than pleasure (nature's goal) then your actions (pursuit of virtue or piety or duty, for examples) will not be consistent with your avowed goal (happiness)

Cassius ,

In all this discussion about PD25, I find your summary most in line with my understanding of that principle. As we pursue virtues to lead a pleasant life (following PD5), we just need to be sure we do so by following natural principles and treating others as a blessed wise person would do (not bringing trouble to others).

Quote from Pacatus

Haris Demitriadis discusses a range of modern psychology in his book Epicurus and the Pleasant Life: A Philosophy of Nature – from Freud to existential psychology to cognitive psychology – to the positive psychology of, especially, Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi (Chapter 7: “The Psychological Approaches to Happiness”). On “positive psychology,” he comments: “Positive psychology focuses on the achievement of a pleasurable life, rather than on treating mental illnesses.”

Thank you Pacatus for referencing the Demitriadis book (2nd edition). I am currently reading his book, and I find his references helpful in how “positive psychology” research reinforces the basic Epicurean principles.

Kalosyni ,

Thanks for your question. As was mentioned, I too feel that would be optional. For me I find it very helpful to read some of the practical ways “positive psychology” advises on actions to reduce mental stress, based on recent research data.