Revisiting Issues of The Use of AI in Epicurean Philosophy

Quote from wbernys

In all this talk about trying to convert the masses don't forget that interpersonal conversion between friends co-workers or family is probably the main driving factor.

This is a good conversation. I'm pressed for time in writing but just to note quickly:

1 - I completely agree with concerns about not trying to convert "the masses." It always pays to know who you're talking to and not intrude on others who clearly don't want to hear your opinions.

2 - Diogenes' wall is good food for thought. He put up a PUBLIC WALL for all who happened upon it to read. But he presumably did not stand on the corner yelling at people about it either.

3 - And if I recall DL says Epicurus numbered his "friends" in whole cities, and Cicero said that Epicurean philosophy had taken Italy "by storm."

Like with everything else theres a context which has to be worked through in deciding what to say and to whom.

I find this to be an interesting development regarding AI search results talking about its own use of evidence (it said that its first response overstated the evidence), as well as talking about the lack of reliabilty of a particular source (in this particular case, SoFE).

Of course, there are still errors as you will see that it says "cup" when Epicurus asked for cheese. And the idea that there was only bread to eat all of the time, but that may have only been during a time of food shortages.

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Query: was Epicurus' twentieth gathering a large feast or a small symposium

DuckDuckGo Assist:

Epicurus' twentieth gathering could not be confirmed; however, the Society of Friends of Epicurus describes the Kepos as a communal non-profit organization that fed strangers monthly, suggesting larger feasts rather than small symposia.

Follow-up Query: what evidence is there that large feasts happened at the kepos

GPT-5.6 Luna: There is no good evidence that large feasts took place at Epicurus’ Garden (the Kepos). My earlier answer overstated the evidence.

The strongest ancient evidence points in the opposite direction:

• Diogenes Laërtius says Epicurus and his associates lived simply, drinking water and eating plain bread. He preserves a letter in which Epicurus says that, although he normally wants only bread and water, he would like a cup so that he could have a feast when he wished. This suggests occasional, modest special meals—not regular large banquets. Attalus
• Diogenes also says that friends came from many places to live with Epicurus in the Garden. That supports the existence of a sizable community, but it does not establish that they gathered for large feasts. Attalus
• Epicurus’ will provided for his birthday to be celebrated annually and his memory monthly. These commemorations may have involved communal meals, but the surviving evidence does not specify their size, menu, or location. Encyclopedia Britannica
• Modern descriptions of the Garden generally characterize it as a private household and philosophical community; they do not provide archaeological or textual evidence for large-scale dining events. University of Tennessee at Martin

The claim about the Garden “feeding strangers monthly” appears to come from a modern Epicurean organization’s interpretation, not from evidence for ancient events at Epicurus’ Kepos. “Feast” in Epicurus’ own usage can simply mean a better-than-usual meal, not a large symposium.

So the cautious conclusion is: the Kepos was a communal household with shared philosophical and social life, and probably occasional commemorative meals, but there is no secure evidence for large feasts. A small symposium—or even an ordinary communal meal—is better supported than a mass banquet.

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Since this is a specific thread on AI, and I keep succumbing to it's siren song, just a bit more...regarding this by ChatGPT, which fessed-up with this phrase: "It would be misleading to give you a precise age."

Also of interest is that it suggests a different (and seemingly much better) translation of the last line, but I'll need to double check that. ( Bryan you might be interested).

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1. You said:

   is the following poem really written by philodemus of gardara or is it by someone else? If by Philodemus, how old was he when he wrote it? What does the part "cast your eyes on me" mean? Poem: "To-morrow, dearest Piso, your friend, beloved by the Muses, who keeps our annual feast of the twentieth invites you to come after the ninth hour to his cottage. If you miss udders and draughts of Chian wine, you will see at least sincere friends and you will hear things far sweeter than the land of the Phaeacians. But if you ever cast your eyes on me, Piso, we shall celebrate the twentieth richly instead of simply."

2. ChatGPT said:

   Yes. The poem is generally accepted as an authentic epigram by Philodemus of Gadara, and it is preserved as Greek Anthology 11.44 (also numbered 27 in David Sider's edition of Philodemus). The attribution is not merely a modern guess: the Greek Anthology itself identifies Philodemus as the author, and modern reference works and editions treat it as one of his poems. A

   

   Anthologia Graeca+2

   When did Philodemus write it?

   There is an important limitation: we cannot date this particular epigram precisely, so we cannot say with certainty, for example, "Philodemus wrote it when he was 47."

   Philodemus is generally dated to approximately 110–40 BCE (some scholars give a slightly later possible death date). David Sider, whose major scholarly edition of the epigrams is still fundamental, places his birth at about 110 BCE. O

   

   OUP Academic+1

   The poem is addressed to Lucius Calpurnius Piso Caesoninus, the Roman statesman who became consul in 58 BCE and was Philodemus' patron. O

   

   OUP Academic The poem therefore belongs to the period when Philodemus was established in Italy and associated with Piso, but we don't have a secure year for its composition.

   So, if we assume the usual dates:

   • Philodemus was born: c. 110 BCE
   • Piso became consul: 58 BCE
   • Philodemus' poem is associated with his relationship with Piso
   • Therefore, he was probably an adult, perhaps middle-aged, when he wrote it, but his exact age cannot be established.

   It would be misleading to give you a precise age.

   There is another clue, however. In another epigram, Philodemus says:

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   "Seven years added to thirty are gone already..."

   That poem indicates that he was about 37 when he wrote that particular poem. A

   

   Attalus But there is no evidence that the Piso invitation was written at exactly the same time.

   What does "cast your eyes on me" mean?

   This is the most interesting part of the poem, because the English translation can make it sound more mysterious or romantic than the Greek necessarily is.

   The Greek is:

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   ἢν δέ ποτε στρέψῃς καὶ ἐς ἡμέας ὄμματα, Πείσων
   "But if ever you turn your eyes toward us too, Piso..."

   The important expression is ἐς ἡμέας ὄμματα — literally something like "your eyes toward us." The verb στρέψῃς means "turn," "turn toward," or "direct." The same passage is translated by another modern rendering as "if you ever turn your gaze on us too." A

   

   Anthologia Graeca+1

   So "cast your eyes on me" does not necessarily mean "look at me lovingly" or "fall in love with me." It's essentially an idiomatic invitation:

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   "If you will turn your attention toward us and actually come to our gathering..."

   or, more naturally:

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   "If you honor us with your presence, Piso..."

   That makes much more sense in context.

   The joke in the final line

   The whole poem is actually a little piece of Epicurean social humor.

   Philodemus is essentially saying:

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   "Come to my humble little dinner tomorrow. I don't have the expensive food and Chian wine that you're accustomed to. But you'll have good friends and pleasant conversation. And if you actually decide to come, your presence will make our humble celebration a splendid one."

   The final couplet says:

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   "But if ever you turn your eyes toward us too, Piso,
   we shall celebrate the twentieth richly instead of simply."

   The contrast is between λιτή (litē), "simple/frugal," and πιοτέρην (pioterēn), "richer/more substantial." A

   

   Anthologia Graeca

   In other words, Piso himself is the "richness."

   That's particularly witty because Philodemus is supposedly inviting his wealthy patron to a modest Epicurean meal. Piso doesn't have to bring the feast; his presence transforms the feast into a rich one.

   And what is "the twentieth"?

   This is important to understanding the poem.

   "The Twentieth" refers to the Twentieth day of the month, an important recurring Epicurean celebration associated with Epicurus. The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy specifically identifies this poem as an invitation to Piso to an Epicurean dinner celebrating Epicurus' birthday on the twentieth. S

   

   Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy

   So the situation is roughly:

   Philodemus:
   "Dear Piso, tomorrow is our Twentieth. Come to my humble place at about 3 p.m. I know you may be accustomed to fancy food and Chian wine, but you'll have good friends and delightful conversation. And if you actually come, it'll be a splendid celebration despite our humble circumstances."

   There's also a lovely Homeric joke in the reference to the Phaeacians. In the Odyssey, the Phaeacians are famous for their lavish hospitality. Philodemus is saying that although his dinner won't compete with the Phaeacian banquets, the conversation will be sweeter than anything found in that legendary land. D

   

   dokumen.pub

   One small translation issue

   I'd actually translate the final sentence a little differently from the version you quoted:

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   "And if ever you turn your eyes toward us too, Piso, we shall celebrate a richer Twentieth instead of a simple one."

   That makes the social meaning clearer than "if you ever cast your eyes on me."

   "Cast your eyes on me" in English can sound flirtatious or even erotic. The Greek doesn't require that interpretation. It is much closer to "turn your attention/gaze toward us" — i.e., come and join us.

   So, in short: yes, this is Philodemus; it is Greek Anthology 11.44; its exact date is unknown; and we cannot reliably calculate his age when he wrote it. The "cast your eyes" phrase is basically an elegant way of saying "if you will turn your attention toward us / honor us by coming." A

   

   Anthologia Graeca+1

   If you'd like, I can also go through the original Greek line by line and show exactly what each Greek word means, including why ἐς ἡμέας ὄμματα is better understood as "turn your gaze toward us" than "cast your eyes on me."

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I like to use my Personal.AI philosophy persona to discuss ideas or articles further in-depth. This often helps me find ways to apply the Epicurean principle in daily life. This helps reinforce the truth of the principle in my life, and allows me to speak to others from my experiences with Epicurean principles.

Having re-read Gábor Betegh and Voula Tsouna‘s work: “Concepts in Epicurean and Stoic Philosophy”, I asked my Philo AI persona to discuss how a Friend of Epicurus could apply these ideas around preconceptions (prolēpsis). The AI response included this suggestion.

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We do not study language for its own sake, but to clear away the fog that prevents us from understanding nature and attaining ataraxia. When you encounter a dilemma, ask yourself: "What is the primary, self-evident concept here that I have gathered from my own experience?" By focusing on these natural, necessary starting points, you can navigate life’s complexities with the tranquility that comes from knowing your foundations are secure and true.

As we discussed further, Philo offered this example of how to use our proleptic experiences to ground our choices & avoidance decisions.

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Consider also the fear of the future or the anxiety of change. When you worry about an upcoming event, you are often projecting fears onto a blank canvas. Return to your prolēpsis of "change" or "time." You have experienced countless days, nights, and transitions in your life. Your preconception of time is not a terrifying void, but a cycle of events you have already navigated. By focusing on the self-evident fact that you have survived every past change, you can ground your current anxiety in the reality of your own resilience, rather than in the "empty" fear of what might happen.

Now this gives me some concrete ideas for how to consider the prolēpsis of the issue, along with senses and feelings.

Have others used this type of proleptic review in decision making?

Quote from Patrikios

Having re-read Gábor Betegh and Voula Tsouna‘s work: “Concepts in Epicurean and Stoic Philosophy”, I asked my Philo AI persona to discuss how a Friend of Epicurus could apply these ideas around preconceptions (prolēpsis). The AI response included this suggestion.

So then Patrikios would it be correct to say that your question to the AI was to "create an example of a self-help technique with the use of preconceptions (prolepsis) to aid in decision making?"

I used ChatGPT with the query: "create an example of a self-help technique with the use of Epicurean preconceptions (prolepsis) to aid in decision making".

Here is the result:

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Self-Help Technique: Using Epicurean Preconceptions (Prolepsis) for Decision-Making

1. Understanding the Concept

In Epicurean philosophy, preconceptions (prolepsis) are general concepts or mental understandings we develop through experience. They help us recognize and evaluate things such as pleasure, pain, happiness, friendship, and justice.

Epicurus believed that pleasure is the highest good, but this does not mean pursuing every immediate pleasure. Instead, we should use reason to distinguish between pleasures that contribute to lasting well-being and those that lead to greater pain or distress.

By applying prolepsis to everyday decisions, individuals can reflect on their existing understanding of what makes life good and use it as a guide when choosing between alternatives.

2. The Technique: The Epicurean Preconception Decision Method

Purpose: To help individuals make thoughtful decisions by examining their preconceptions about happiness, pleasure, pain, and well-being.

Step 1: Identify the decision.

Clearly state the decision you need to make.

For example:

• Should I accept a promotion that offers a higher salary but requires significantly longer working hours?

Step 2: Identify your relevant preconceptions.

Reflect on your general understanding of what makes life fulfilling. Consider the following questions:

• What does a happy life mean to me?
• What do I understand by pleasure and suffering?
• What role do peace of mind, health, friendship, and financial security play in my well-being?

For example, you may recognize that you associate happiness with financial security, meaningful relationships, sufficient rest, and freedom from unnecessary stress.

These preconceptions provide a starting point for evaluating your decision.

Step 3: Examine the immediate and long-term consequences.

Evaluate each available option according to the pleasure and pain it may produce.

Consider the following example:

Consideration	Accepting the promotion	Declining the promotion
Immediate pleasure	Excitement about increased income and recognition	Relief from additional responsibilities
Potential immediate pain	Anxiety about greater demands	Disappointment about missing an opportunity
Long-term benefits	Greater financial security and career development	More free time and a better work-life balance
Potential long-term costs	Less sleep, increased stress, and reduced time with loved ones	Slower career advancement and less income

The goal is not to eliminate all discomfort. Instead, it is to consider whether a temporary difficulty might produce a worthwhile benefit or whether an immediate pleasure could lead to greater suffering later.

Step 4: Test the decision against your preconceptions.

Compare the consequences of each option with your understanding of a good life.

Ask yourself:

• Does this option support the kind of happiness I consider important?
• Am I pursuing this opportunity because it genuinely improves my life, or because I want social recognition?
• Will the additional income reduce a meaningful source of anxiety?
• Could the additional responsibilities undermine my health or relationships?

For example, if you recognize that peace of mind and close relationships are essential to your happiness, you might question whether the additional salary justifies a substantial loss of personal time.

However, if your current financial situation causes significant distress, the promotion might offer a valuable improvement in your well-being.

The important point is to examine the actual consequences rather than automatically favoring either pleasure or the avoidance of pain.

Step 5: Make a reasoned choice.

Choose the option that best supports your overall well-being after considering its likely consequences.

Suppose you determine that your current salary already provides sufficient financial security, while the promotion would substantially increase your stress and reduce your time with family.

You might decide to decline the promotion and seek opportunities for professional growth that offer a better balance between income and personal well-being.

Alternatively, if the promotion would help you resolve serious financial difficulties and its demands were manageable, accepting it might be the more reasonable choice.

Step 6: Reflect on the outcome.

After making your decision, evaluate its effects.

Ask yourself:

• Did my decision contribute to my well-being?
• Were my expectations about pleasure and pain accurate?
• What have I learned that could help me make better decisions in the future?

This reflection can help you refine your practical judgment and improve future decisions.

It is important to distinguish this reflective exercise from prolepsis itself: in Epicurean philosophy, preconceptions are not simply personal preferences or beliefs that can be freely changed. Rather, they are general concepts that provide a basis for recognizing and understanding things. Reflection and experience help you apply those concepts to particular circumstances.

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3. A Practical Worksheet for Daily Use

You can use the following worksheet whenever you face a difficult decision.

The Epicurean Preconception Decision Worksheet

1. My decision: What choice do I need to make?
2. My understanding of a good life: What do I consider essential to happiness and well-being?
3. My relevant preconceptions: What do I understand by pleasure, pain, peace of mind, friendship, health, or security in this situation?
4. Option A: What immediate and long-term pleasures and pains might this option produce?
5. Option B: What immediate and long-term pleasures and pains might this option produce?
6. Reasoned evaluation: Which option is more likely to contribute to my overall well-being, considering both its benefits and its costs?
7. My decision: Which option will I choose, and why?
8. Reflection: What did I learn from the outcome?

You can complete this worksheet in five to ten minutes, although more complicated decisions may require additional research and reflection.

4. Why This Technique May Be Helpful

This technique applies Epicurean ideas to practical decision-making in several ways.

• Clarifies personal priorities: Reflecting on concepts such as happiness and peace of mind can help you distinguish what genuinely matters from what you feel pressured to pursue.
• Encourages long-term thinking: Evaluating immediate and future consequences can prevent impulsive choices.
• Reduces unnecessary distress: Carefully examining the likely consequences of a decision may help reduce anxiety caused by uncertainty.
• Supports rational judgment: Comparing alternatives encourages you to evaluate consequences rather than relying exclusively on immediate emotions.
• Promotes self-awareness: Reflecting on your decisions can help you recognize recurring patterns in how you pursue pleasure and avoid pain.

These are plausible practical benefits of the exercise, rather than established clinical effects of prolepsis specifically.

5. The Philosophical Connection to Epicurus

The technique draws on three important elements of Epicurean philosophy:

1. Preconceptions (prolepsis General concepts that help us recognize and understand things, including pleasure and pain.
2. The feeling of pleasure and pain: Epicurus treated these feelings as fundamental to evaluating what is desirable and undesirable.
3. Practical wisdom (phronesis The capacity to reason carefully about choices and consequences. Epicurus regarded practical wisdom as essential to living pleasantly.

These elements work together. Preconceptions provide conceptual understanding, pleasure and pain supply basic evaluative criteria, and practical wisdom helps determine which course of action is most beneficial.

Importantly, Epicureanism does not recommend maximizing pleasure at every moment. A wise decision considers the quality and consequences of pleasure, recognizing that some pleasures should be avoided and some pains willingly accepted when doing so leads to greater well-being.

Conclusion

The Epicurean Preconception Decision Method is a self-help exercise that encourages individuals to clarify their understanding of happiness, examine the consequences of alternative choices, and make decisions consistent with a flourishing life.

By using prolepsis as a conceptual starting point and practical wisdom as a guide, individuals can approach difficult decisions more deliberately. Rather than asking only, "What do I want right now?", they learn to ask, "Which choice is most likely to contribute to a pleasant, peaceful, and well-lived life?"

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I haven't read through the latest posts to comment too closely but I think as to the general point of the usefulness of discussing things with AI I am finding that the quality of the result is highly dependent on the quality of the input. But as to the general point of "talking to AI" as a tool, I don't think there's any doubt that this is part of the revolutionary change that is going on right now and cannot and should not be ignored. I am seeing in the software world there is an absolute war going on over how to use it. I understand and agree with many of the concerns but the part of the world that refuses to adjust and make it work for them, rather than against them, is going to very quickly go extinct. The pace of change in the last 9 months has been remarkable and it's only moving faster. Whole categories of jobs and careers are being swept away before our eyes. I definitely think the opportunities are here for Epicurean philosophy to play a major role in responding to what is happening, and talking to our AI models is going to end up being a major part of that. The whole method of interfacing with computers that has been the norm for 40 years is getting swept away before our eyes.