Revisiting Issues of The Use of AI in Epicurean Philosophy

Quote from wbernys

In all this talk about trying to convert the masses don't forget that interpersonal conversion between friends co-workers or family is probably the main driving factor.

This is a good conversation. I'm pressed for time in writing but just to note quickly:

1 - I completely agree with concerns about not trying to convert "the masses." It always pays to know who you're talking to and not intrude on others who clearly don't want to hear your opinions.

2 - Diogenes' wall is good food for thought. He put up a PUBLIC WALL for all who happened upon it to read. But he presumably did not stand on the corner yelling at people about it either.

3 - And if I recall DL says Epicurus numbered his "friends" in whole cities, and Cicero said that Epicurean philosophy had taken Italy "by storm."

Like with everything else theres a context which has to be worked through in deciding what to say and to whom.

I find this to be an interesting development regarding AI search results talking about its own use of evidence (it said that its first response overstated the evidence), as well as talking about the lack of reliabilty of a particular source (in this particular case, SoFE).

Of course, there are still errors as you will see that it says "cup" when Epicurus asked for cheese. And the idea that there was only bread to eat all of the time, but that may have only been during a time of food shortages.

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Query: was Epicurus' twentieth gathering a large feast or a small symposium

DuckDuckGo Assist:

Epicurus' twentieth gathering could not be confirmed; however, the Society of Friends of Epicurus describes the Kepos as a communal non-profit organization that fed strangers monthly, suggesting larger feasts rather than small symposia.

Follow-up Query: what evidence is there that large feasts happened at the kepos

GPT-5.6 Luna: There is no good evidence that large feasts took place at Epicurus’ Garden (the Kepos). My earlier answer overstated the evidence.

The strongest ancient evidence points in the opposite direction:

• Diogenes Laërtius says Epicurus and his associates lived simply, drinking water and eating plain bread. He preserves a letter in which Epicurus says that, although he normally wants only bread and water, he would like a cup so that he could have a feast when he wished. This suggests occasional, modest special meals—not regular large banquets. Attalus
• Diogenes also says that friends came from many places to live with Epicurus in the Garden. That supports the existence of a sizable community, but it does not establish that they gathered for large feasts. Attalus
• Epicurus’ will provided for his birthday to be celebrated annually and his memory monthly. These commemorations may have involved communal meals, but the surviving evidence does not specify their size, menu, or location. Encyclopedia Britannica
• Modern descriptions of the Garden generally characterize it as a private household and philosophical community; they do not provide archaeological or textual evidence for large-scale dining events. University of Tennessee at Martin

The claim about the Garden “feeding strangers monthly” appears to come from a modern Epicurean organization’s interpretation, not from evidence for ancient events at Epicurus’ Kepos. “Feast” in Epicurus’ own usage can simply mean a better-than-usual meal, not a large symposium.

So the cautious conclusion is: the Kepos was a communal household with shared philosophical and social life, and probably occasional commemorative meals, but there is no secure evidence for large feasts. A small symposium—or even an ordinary communal meal—is better supported than a mass banquet.

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Since this is a specific thread on AI, and I keep succumbing to it's siren song, just a bit more...regarding this by ChatGPT, which fessed-up with this phrase: "It would be misleading to give you a precise age."

Also of interest is that it suggests a different (and seemingly much better) translation of the last line, but I'll need to double check that. ( Bryan you might be interested).

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1. You said:

   is the following poem really written by philodemus of gardara or is it by someone else? If by Philodemus, how old was he when he wrote it? What does the part "cast your eyes on me" mean? Poem: "To-morrow, dearest Piso, your friend, beloved by the Muses, who keeps our annual feast of the twentieth invites you to come after the ninth hour to his cottage. If you miss udders and draughts of Chian wine, you will see at least sincere friends and you will hear things far sweeter than the land of the Phaeacians. But if you ever cast your eyes on me, Piso, we shall celebrate the twentieth richly instead of simply."

2. ChatGPT said:

   Yes. The poem is generally accepted as an authentic epigram by Philodemus of Gadara, and it is preserved as Greek Anthology 11.44 (also numbered 27 in David Sider's edition of Philodemus). The attribution is not merely a modern guess: the Greek Anthology itself identifies Philodemus as the author, and modern reference works and editions treat it as one of his poems. A

   

   Anthologia Graeca+2

   When did Philodemus write it?

   There is an important limitation: we cannot date this particular epigram precisely, so we cannot say with certainty, for example, "Philodemus wrote it when he was 47."

   Philodemus is generally dated to approximately 110–40 BCE (some scholars give a slightly later possible death date). David Sider, whose major scholarly edition of the epigrams is still fundamental, places his birth at about 110 BCE. O

   

   OUP Academic+1

   The poem is addressed to Lucius Calpurnius Piso Caesoninus, the Roman statesman who became consul in 58 BCE and was Philodemus' patron. O

   

   OUP Academic The poem therefore belongs to the period when Philodemus was established in Italy and associated with Piso, but we don't have a secure year for its composition.

   So, if we assume the usual dates:

   • Philodemus was born: c. 110 BCE
   • Piso became consul: 58 BCE
   • Philodemus' poem is associated with his relationship with Piso
   • Therefore, he was probably an adult, perhaps middle-aged, when he wrote it, but his exact age cannot be established.

   It would be misleading to give you a precise age.

   There is another clue, however. In another epigram, Philodemus says:

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   "Seven years added to thirty are gone already..."

   That poem indicates that he was about 37 when he wrote that particular poem. A

   

   Attalus But there is no evidence that the Piso invitation was written at exactly the same time.

   What does "cast your eyes on me" mean?

   This is the most interesting part of the poem, because the English translation can make it sound more mysterious or romantic than the Greek necessarily is.

   The Greek is:

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   ἢν δέ ποτε στρέψῃς καὶ ἐς ἡμέας ὄμματα, Πείσων
   "But if ever you turn your eyes toward us too, Piso..."

   The important expression is ἐς ἡμέας ὄμματα — literally something like "your eyes toward us." The verb στρέψῃς means "turn," "turn toward," or "direct." The same passage is translated by another modern rendering as "if you ever turn your gaze on us too." A

   

   Anthologia Graeca+1

   So "cast your eyes on me" does not necessarily mean "look at me lovingly" or "fall in love with me." It's essentially an idiomatic invitation:

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   "If you will turn your attention toward us and actually come to our gathering..."

   or, more naturally:

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   "If you honor us with your presence, Piso..."

   That makes much more sense in context.

   The joke in the final line

   The whole poem is actually a little piece of Epicurean social humor.

   Philodemus is essentially saying:

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   "Come to my humble little dinner tomorrow. I don't have the expensive food and Chian wine that you're accustomed to. But you'll have good friends and pleasant conversation. And if you actually decide to come, your presence will make our humble celebration a splendid one."

   The final couplet says:

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   "But if ever you turn your eyes toward us too, Piso,
   we shall celebrate the twentieth richly instead of simply."

   The contrast is between λιτή (litē), "simple/frugal," and πιοτέρην (pioterēn), "richer/more substantial." A

   

   Anthologia Graeca

   In other words, Piso himself is the "richness."

   That's particularly witty because Philodemus is supposedly inviting his wealthy patron to a modest Epicurean meal. Piso doesn't have to bring the feast; his presence transforms the feast into a rich one.

   And what is "the twentieth"?

   This is important to understanding the poem.

   "The Twentieth" refers to the Twentieth day of the month, an important recurring Epicurean celebration associated with Epicurus. The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy specifically identifies this poem as an invitation to Piso to an Epicurean dinner celebrating Epicurus' birthday on the twentieth. S

   

   Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy

   So the situation is roughly:

   Philodemus:
   "Dear Piso, tomorrow is our Twentieth. Come to my humble place at about 3 p.m. I know you may be accustomed to fancy food and Chian wine, but you'll have good friends and delightful conversation. And if you actually come, it'll be a splendid celebration despite our humble circumstances."

   There's also a lovely Homeric joke in the reference to the Phaeacians. In the Odyssey, the Phaeacians are famous for their lavish hospitality. Philodemus is saying that although his dinner won't compete with the Phaeacian banquets, the conversation will be sweeter than anything found in that legendary land. D

   

   dokumen.pub

   One small translation issue

   I'd actually translate the final sentence a little differently from the version you quoted:

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   "And if ever you turn your eyes toward us too, Piso, we shall celebrate a richer Twentieth instead of a simple one."

   That makes the social meaning clearer than "if you ever cast your eyes on me."

   "Cast your eyes on me" in English can sound flirtatious or even erotic. The Greek doesn't require that interpretation. It is much closer to "turn your attention/gaze toward us" — i.e., come and join us.

   So, in short: yes, this is Philodemus; it is Greek Anthology 11.44; its exact date is unknown; and we cannot reliably calculate his age when he wrote it. The "cast your eyes" phrase is basically an elegant way of saying "if you will turn your attention toward us / honor us by coming." A

   

   Anthologia Graeca+1

   If you'd like, I can also go through the original Greek line by line and show exactly what each Greek word means, including why ἐς ἡμέας ὄμματα is better understood as "turn your gaze toward us" than "cast your eyes on me."

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