1. Home
    1. Start Here: Study Guide
    2. Community Standards And Posting Policies
    3. Terms of Use
    4. Moderator Team
    5. Site Map
    6. Quizzes
    7. Articles
      1. Featured Articles
    8. All Blog Posts
      1. Elli's Blog / Articles
  2. Wiki
    1. Wiki Home
    2. FAQ
    3. Classical Epicureanism
    4. Physics Wiki
    5. Canonics Wiki
    6. Ethics Wiki
    7. Search Assistance
    8. Not NeoEpicurean
    9. Foundations
    10. Navigation Outlines
    11. Key Pages
  3. Forum
    1. Full Forum List
    2. Welcome Threads
    3. Physics
    4. Canonics
    5. Ethics
    6. Uncategorized Forum
    7. Study Resources Forum
    8. Ancient Texts Forum
    9. Shortcuts
    10. Featured
    11. Most Discussed
  4. Latest
    1. New Activity
    2. Latest Threads
    3. Dashboard
    4. Search By Tag
    5. Complete Tag List
  5. Podcast
    1. Lucretius Today Podcast
    2. Episode Guide
    3. Lucretius Today At Youtube
    4. EpicureanFriends Youtube Page
  6. Texts
    1. Overview
    2. Diogenes Laertius
    3. Principal Doctrines
    4. Vatican Sayings
    5. Lucretius
    6. Herodotus
    7. Pythocles
    8. Menoeceus
    9. Fragments - Usener Collection
    10. Torquatus On Ethics
    11. Velleius On Gods
    12. Greek/Latin Help
  7. Gallery
    1. Featured images
    2. Albums
    3. Latest Images
    4. Latest Comments
  8. Calendar
    1. Upcoming Events List
    2. Zoom Meetings
    3. This Month
    4. Sunday Zoom Meetings
    5. First Monday Zoom Meetings
    6. Wednesday Zoom Meeting
    7. Twentieth Zoom Meetings
    8. Zoom Meetings
  9. Other
    1. Featured Content
    2. Blog Posts
    3. Files
    4. Logbook
    5. EF ToDo List
    6. Link-Database
  • Login
  • Register
  • Search
This Thread
  • Everywhere
  • This Thread
  • This Forum
  • Forum
  • Articles
  • Blog Articles
  • Files
  • Gallery
  • Events
  • Pages
  • Wiki
  • Help
  • FAQ
  • More Options

Welcome To EpicureanFriends.com!

"Remember that you are mortal, and you have a limited time to live, and in devoting yourself to discussion of the nature of time and eternity you have seen things that have been, are now, and are to come."

Sign In Now
or
Register a new account
  1. Home
    1. Start Here: Study Guide
    2. Community Standards And Posting Policies
    3. Terms of Use
    4. Moderator Team
    5. Site Map
    6. Quizzes
    7. Articles
      1. Featured Articles
    8. All Blog Posts
      1. Elli's Blog / Articles
  2. Wiki
    1. Wiki Home
    2. FAQ
    3. Classical Epicureanism
    4. Physics Wiki
    5. Canonics Wiki
    6. Ethics Wiki
    7. Search Assistance
    8. Not NeoEpicurean
    9. Foundations
    10. Navigation Outlines
    11. Key Pages
  3. Forum
    1. Full Forum List
    2. Welcome Threads
    3. Physics
    4. Canonics
    5. Ethics
    6. Uncategorized Forum
    7. Study Resources Forum
    8. Ancient Texts Forum
    9. Shortcuts
    10. Featured
    11. Most Discussed
  4. Latest
    1. New Activity
    2. Latest Threads
    3. Dashboard
    4. Search By Tag
    5. Complete Tag List
  5. Podcast
    1. Lucretius Today Podcast
    2. Episode Guide
    3. Lucretius Today At Youtube
    4. EpicureanFriends Youtube Page
  6. Texts
    1. Overview
    2. Diogenes Laertius
    3. Principal Doctrines
    4. Vatican Sayings
    5. Lucretius
    6. Herodotus
    7. Pythocles
    8. Menoeceus
    9. Fragments - Usener Collection
    10. Torquatus On Ethics
    11. Velleius On Gods
    12. Greek/Latin Help
  7. Gallery
    1. Featured images
    2. Albums
    3. Latest Images
    4. Latest Comments
  8. Calendar
    1. Upcoming Events List
    2. Zoom Meetings
    3. This Month
    4. Sunday Zoom Meetings
    5. First Monday Zoom Meetings
    6. Wednesday Zoom Meeting
    7. Twentieth Zoom Meetings
    8. Zoom Meetings
  9. Other
    1. Featured Content
    2. Blog Posts
    3. Files
    4. Logbook
    5. EF ToDo List
    6. Link-Database
  1. Home
    1. Start Here: Study Guide
    2. Community Standards And Posting Policies
    3. Terms of Use
    4. Moderator Team
    5. Site Map
    6. Quizzes
    7. Articles
      1. Featured Articles
    8. All Blog Posts
      1. Elli's Blog / Articles
  2. Wiki
    1. Wiki Home
    2. FAQ
    3. Classical Epicureanism
    4. Physics Wiki
    5. Canonics Wiki
    6. Ethics Wiki
    7. Search Assistance
    8. Not NeoEpicurean
    9. Foundations
    10. Navigation Outlines
    11. Key Pages
  3. Forum
    1. Full Forum List
    2. Welcome Threads
    3. Physics
    4. Canonics
    5. Ethics
    6. Uncategorized Forum
    7. Study Resources Forum
    8. Ancient Texts Forum
    9. Shortcuts
    10. Featured
    11. Most Discussed
  4. Latest
    1. New Activity
    2. Latest Threads
    3. Dashboard
    4. Search By Tag
    5. Complete Tag List
  5. Podcast
    1. Lucretius Today Podcast
    2. Episode Guide
    3. Lucretius Today At Youtube
    4. EpicureanFriends Youtube Page
  6. Texts
    1. Overview
    2. Diogenes Laertius
    3. Principal Doctrines
    4. Vatican Sayings
    5. Lucretius
    6. Herodotus
    7. Pythocles
    8. Menoeceus
    9. Fragments - Usener Collection
    10. Torquatus On Ethics
    11. Velleius On Gods
    12. Greek/Latin Help
  7. Gallery
    1. Featured images
    2. Albums
    3. Latest Images
    4. Latest Comments
  8. Calendar
    1. Upcoming Events List
    2. Zoom Meetings
    3. This Month
    4. Sunday Zoom Meetings
    5. First Monday Zoom Meetings
    6. Wednesday Zoom Meeting
    7. Twentieth Zoom Meetings
    8. Zoom Meetings
  9. Other
    1. Featured Content
    2. Blog Posts
    3. Files
    4. Logbook
    5. EF ToDo List
    6. Link-Database
  1. EpicureanFriends - Home of Classical Epicurean Philosophy
  2. Forum
  3. Ethics - How To Live
  4. Virtue (A Means for Pleasure, Not an End in Itself)
  • Sidebar
  • Sidebar

What is Virtue and what aspects of Virtue does an Epicurean cultivate?

  • Kalosyni
  • March 13, 2025 at 8:17 AM
  • Go to last post

We are now requiring that new registrants confirm their request for an account by email.  Once you complete the "Sign Up" process to set up your user name and password, please send an email to the New Accounts Administator to obtain new account approval.

Regularly Checking In On A Small Screen Device? Bookmark THIS page!
  • Kalosyni
    Student of the Kepos
    Points
    18,217
    Posts
    2,220
    Quizzes
    2
    Quiz rate
    90.9 %
    • March 13, 2025 at 8:17 AM
    • #1

    I want to start a discussion on the topic of virtue (aspects of which may have already been discussed in the past) but mainly because it seems that this topic hasn't has enough time in the limelight as what it deserves.

    Principal Doctrine 5 - An Epicurean sees virtue as important for a happy and pleasurable life because it is the means to a happy and pleasurable life - virtue is itself not the end goal but is the way that leads to a pleasurable life.

    So up for discussion is anything from Epicurean philosophy (including from Philodemus) that touches on development of virtue for the sake of a happy and pleasurable life.

    I will start off with thinking about how we understand the word "virtue" in our current times.

    Here is the opening from Wikipedia:

    Quote

    A virtue (Latin: virtus) is a trait of excellence, including traits that may be moral, social, or intellectual. The cultivation and refinement of virtue is held to be the "good of humanity" and thus is valued as an end purpose of life or a foundational principle of being. In human practical ethics, a virtue is a disposition to choose actions that succeed in showing high moral standards: doing what is said to be right and avoiding what is wrong in a given field of endeavour, even when doing so may be unnecessary from a utilitarian perspective. When someone takes pleasure in doing what is right, even when it is difficult or initially unpleasant, they can establish virtue as a habit. Such a person is said to be virtuous through having cultivated such a disposition. The opposite of virtue is vice.

    (Wikipedia has more on this here).

  • Kalosyni
    Student of the Kepos
    Points
    18,217
    Posts
    2,220
    Quizzes
    2
    Quiz rate
    90.9 %
    • March 13, 2025 at 10:19 AM
    • #2

    All of these questions to consider: What is "virtue" according to this or that philosopher (ancient or modern)? What is "virtue" according to the current zeitgeist? What do I think "virtue" is, and what does Epicurus say about "virtue"?

    Also found this essay as food for thought on "Virtue and Ethics".

  • Pacatus
    03 - Level Three
    Points
    6,308
    Posts
    793
    Quizzes
    5
    Quiz rate
    92.3 %
    • August 15, 2025 at 4:41 PM
    • New
    • #3

    Here is a Wiki article on Virtue Ethics: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtue_ethics

    “Some modern versions of virtue ethics do not define virtues in terms of well being or flourishing, and some go so far as to define virtues as traits that tend to promote some other good that is defined independently of the virtues, thereby subsuming virtue ethics under (or somehow merging it with) consequentialist ethics.”

    This seems to be the move made by Lawrence Becker (sort of the “founding father” in academic circles of modern Stoicism) in his A New Stoicism. He essentially defines virtue as something necessary to enhance and sustain “effective agency” toward some (any) endeavor. Effective agency is necessary (though not sufficient) to the successful outcome of any endeavor. He makes some other (to me very questionable, to say the least) moves to try and salvage a Stoic virtue ethics from being a thoroughgoing consequentialism. I think he fails – and once again reminds of Emily Austin’s essay suggesting that modern Stoics are really disguised Epicureaans. (Becker also dismisses any notion of an intelligent, providential universe. And he seems to hedge on eudaimonia as telos.)

    Aretḗ

    This does at least remove “virtue” from any particular “moralism”. And I think that moves it closer to the original Greek term aretḗ (ἀρετή) – as "excellence" of any kind – especially a person or thing's "full realization of potential or inherent function." (Which may include, but does not strictly refer to, “moral virtue”).

    And: “The ancient Greeks applied the term arete (ἀρετή) to anything: for example, the excellence of a chimney, the excellence of a bull for breeding, and the excellence of a man.” Since this view seems focussed on functional values, it seems closer to consequentialism to me.

    Arete - Wikipedia
    en.wikipedia.org

    I’m sure that Don can contribute more on this …

    "We must try to make the end of the journey better than the beginning, as long as we are journeying; but when we come to the end, we must be happy and content." (Vatican Saying 48)

  • Pacatus
    03 - Level Three
    Points
    6,308
    Posts
    793
    Quizzes
    5
    Quiz rate
    92.3 %
    • August 15, 2025 at 4:57 PM
    • New
    • #4
    Quote from Kalosyni

    Principal Doctrine 5 - An Epicurean sees virtue as important for a happy and pleasurable life because it is the means to a happy and pleasurable life - virtue is itself not the end goal but is the way that leads to a pleasurable life.

    In addition to PD5, there is also this --

    Letter to Menoiceus 132: “Of all this the beginning and the greatest good is prudence. Wherefore prudence is a more precious thing even than philosophy: for from prudence are sprung all the other virtues, and it teaches us that it is not possible to live pleasantly without living prudently and honorably and justly, (nor, again, to live a life of prudence, honor, and justice) without living pleasantly. For the virtues are by nature bound up with the pleasant life, and the pleasant life is inseparable from them.”

    "We must try to make the end of the journey better than the beginning, as long as we are journeying; but when we come to the end, we must be happy and content." (Vatican Saying 48)

  • Matteng
    03 - Level Three
    Points
    461
    Posts
    55
    • August 19, 2025 at 8:50 AM
    • New
    • #5

    Thanks, I often worry

    that the topic sometimes fades into the background because rivals to Epicurean philosophy often define virtue as the highest good instead of Pleasure.

    One must be careful not to create a false dichotomy like virtue vs. pleasure. In Epicureanism, virtue and pleasure grow together, but virtue gets its value from pleasure, not the other way around. Virtue is the greatest but instrumental good. Therefore, many people (as I used to) unconsciously believe that Stoics, for example, are generally more virtuous than Epicureans, which is nonsense. The path to pleasure/eudaimonia always leads via virtue. I see the biggest difference (virtue or pleasure as the core of eudaimonia/life goal) in that eudaimonia, the good self or inner spirit, is defined by the Stoics as "doing good" while Epicureans define it as "experiencing good."

  • Eikadistes
    Garden Bard
    Points
    15,132
    Posts
    904
    Quizzes
    6
    Quiz rate
    93.2 %
    Bookmarks
    10
    • August 19, 2025 at 9:50 AM
    • New
    • #6
    Quote from Matteng

    One must be careful not to create a false dichotomy like virtue vs. pleasure.

    No doubt!

  • Kalosyni
    Student of the Kepos
    Points
    18,217
    Posts
    2,220
    Quizzes
    2
    Quiz rate
    90.9 %
    • August 19, 2025 at 10:04 AM
    • New
    • #7
    Quote from Matteng

    Thanks, I often worry

    that the topic sometimes fades into the background because rivals to Epicurean philosophy often define virtue as the highest good instead of Pleasure.

    One must be careful not to create a false dichotomy like virtue vs. pleasure. In Epicureanism, virtue and pleasure grow together, but virtue gets its value from pleasure, not the other way around. Virtue is the greatest but instrumental good. Therefore, many people (as I used to) unconsciously believe that Stoics, for example, are generally more virtuous than Epicureans, which is nonsense. The path to pleasure/eudaimonia always leads via virtue. I see the biggest difference (virtue or pleasure as the core of eudaimonia/life goal) in that eudaimonia, the good self or inner spirit, is defined by the Stoics as "doing good" while Epicureans define it as "experiencing good."

    Very well said Matteng

    This section of the Letter to Menoeceus points toward choosing actions which are non-harming:

    "He therefore thinks it better to be unfortunate in reasonable action than to prosper in unreason. For it is better in a man’s actions that what is well chosen (should fail, rather than that what is ill chosen) should be successful owing to chance."

    Choosing actions which do not harm others will often (but not every single time) create the best outcome.

Unread Threads

    1. Title
    2. Replies
    3. Last Reply
    1. Anti-Natalism: The Opposite of Epicureanism 7

      • Like 1
      • Don
      • August 20, 2025 at 7:41 AM
      • Comparing Epicurus With Other Philosophers - General Discussion
      • Don
      • August 21, 2025 at 3:31 AM
    2. Replies
      7
      Views
      376
      7
    3. Cassius

      August 21, 2025 at 3:31 AM
    1. Ecclesiastes what insights can we gleam from it? 4

      • Like 4
      • Eoghan Gardiner
      • December 2, 2023 at 6:11 AM
      • Epicurus vs Abraham (Judaism, Christianity, Islam)
      • Eoghan Gardiner
      • August 18, 2025 at 7:54 AM
    2. Replies
      4
      Views
      1.8k
      4
    3. Kalosyni

      August 18, 2025 at 7:54 AM
    1. Grumphism? LOL

      • Haha 2
      • Don
      • August 16, 2025 at 3:17 PM
      • Uncategorized Discussion (General)
      • Don
      • August 16, 2025 at 3:17 PM
    2. Replies
      0
      Views
      255
    1. Beyond Stoicism (2025) 20

      • Thanks 1
      • Don
      • August 12, 2025 at 5:54 AM
      • Epicurus vs. the Stoics (Zeno, Chrysippus, Cleanthes, Epictetus, Seneca, Marcus Aurelius)
      • Don
      • August 15, 2025 at 4:28 PM
    2. Replies
      20
      Views
      1k
      20
    3. Don

      August 15, 2025 at 4:28 PM
    1. Immutability of Epicurean school in ancient times 11

      • Thanks 1
      • TauPhi
      • July 28, 2025 at 8:44 PM
      • Uncategorized Discussion (General)
      • TauPhi
      • July 29, 2025 at 2:14 PM
    2. Replies
      11
      Views
      1.2k
      11
    3. Eikadistes

      July 29, 2025 at 2:14 PM

Finding Things At EpicureanFriends.com

What's the best strategy for finding things on EpicureanFriends.com? Here's a suggested search strategy:

  • First, familiarize yourself with the list of forums. The best way to find threads related to a particular topic is to look in the relevant forum. Over the years most people have tried to start threads according to forum topic, and we regularly move threads from our "general discussion" area over to forums with more descriptive titles.
  • Use the "Search" facility at the top right of every page. Note that the search box asks you what section of the forum you'd like to search. If you don't know, select "Everywhere." Also check the "Search Assistance" page.
  • Use the "Tag" facility, starting with the "Key Tags By Topic" in the right hand navigation pane, or using the "Search By Tag" page, or the "Tag Overview" page which contains a list of all tags alphabetically. We curate the available tags to keep them to a manageable number that is descriptive of frequently-searched topics.

Frequently Used Forums

  • Frequently Asked / Introductory Questions
  • News And Announcements
  • Lucretius Today Podcast
  • Physics (The Nature of the Universe)
  • Canonics (The Tests Of Truth)
  • Ethics (How To Live)
  • Against Determinism
  • Against Skepticism
  • The "Meaning of Life" Question
  • Uncategorized Discussion
  • Comparisons With Other Philosophies
  • Historical Figures
  • Ancient Texts
  • Decline of The Ancient Epicurean Age
  • Unsolved Questions of Epicurean History
  • Welcome New Participants
  • Events - Activism - Outreach
  • Full Forum List

Latest Posts

  • Episode 296 - Not Yet Recorded - Further Comment On Plutarch's Attack on "Absence of Pain"

    Cassius August 22, 2025 at 5:24 PM
  • Sunday Zoom - August 24, 2025 - 12:30 PM ET - Topic: "Virtue Is Not Absolute Or An End In Itself. All Good And Evil Consists In Sensation"

    Cassius August 22, 2025 at 5:02 PM
  • Horace - Buying Pleasure With Pain is Harmful (????)

    Cassius August 22, 2025 at 12:04 PM
  • Episode 295 - TD25 - Plutarch's Absurd Interpretation of Epicurean Absence of Pain

    Cassius August 22, 2025 at 8:38 AM
  • "Habeo non Habeor" (Associated With Aristippus?)

    Cassius August 22, 2025 at 8:10 AM
  • VS63 - "Frugality Too Has A Limit..."

    Bryan August 22, 2025 at 2:44 AM
  • Food and Medicine in the Time of the Epicureans in Ancient Greece and Rome

    Pacatus August 21, 2025 at 3:04 PM
  • Anti-Natalism: The Opposite of Epicureanism

    Cassius August 21, 2025 at 3:31 AM
  • Happy Twentieth of August 2025!

    Kalosyni August 20, 2025 at 8:00 AM
  • Latest Lucretius Today Podcast - Episode 295 - Plutarch's Absurd Interpretation of Epicurean Absence of Pain - Make Sure It's Not Yours!

    Cassius August 19, 2025 at 6:38 PM

Key Tags By Topic

  • #Canonics
  • #Death
  • #Emotions
  • #Engagement
  • #EpicureanLiving
  • #Ethics
  • #FreeWill
  • #Friendship
  • #Gods
  • #Happiness
  • #HighestGood
  • #Images
  • #Infinity
  • #Justice
  • #Knowledge
  • #Physics
  • #Pleasure
  • #Soul
  • #Twentieth
  • #Virtue


Click Here To Search All Tags

To Suggest Additions To This List Click Here

EpicureanFriends - Classical Epicurean Philosophy

  1. Home
    1. About Us
    2. Classical Epicurean Philosophy
  2. Wiki
    1. Getting Started
  3. Frequently Asked Questions
    1. Site Map
  4. Forum
    1. Latest Threads
    2. Featured Threads
    3. Unread Posts
  5. Texts
    1. Core Texts
    2. Biography of Epicurus
    3. Lucretius
  6. Articles
    1. Latest Articles
  7. Gallery
    1. Featured Images
  8. Calendar
    1. This Month At EpicureanFriends
Powered by WoltLab Suite™ 6.0.22
Style: Inspire by cls-design
Stylename
Inspire
Manufacturer
cls-design
Licence
Commercial styles
Help
Supportforum
Visit cls-design