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  1. EpicureanFriends - Home of Classical Epicurean Philosophy
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New Religious Landscape Study from Pew Research

  • Don
  • February 26, 2025 at 10:40 PM
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  • Don
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    • February 26, 2025 at 10:40 PM
    • #1
    Decline of Christianity in the U.S. Has Slowed, May Have Leveled Off
    After years of decline, the U.S. Christian share now shows signs of leveling off. The new Religious Landscape Study explores trends in identity, beliefs and…
    www.pewresearch.org

    We got some work to do :rolleyes:

    • 86% believe people have a soul or spirit in addition to their physical body.
    • 83% believe in God or a universal spirit.
    • 79% believe there is something spiritual beyond the natural world, even if we can’t see it.
    • 70% believe in an afterlife (heaven, hell or both).

    Interesting study from Pew Research.

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    Kalosyni
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    • February 27, 2025 at 6:25 AM
    • #2

    Very interesting...and the section on: Religion and views of right and wrong

    Quote

    A majority of U.S. adults (55%) say that whether something is right or wrong often depends on the situation. Fewer than half say there are clear and absolute standards by which to decide whether something is right or wrong, according to the 2023-24 Religious Landscape Study (RLS).

    In response to a separate question, the survey finds that 68% of Americans say it is possible to be moral and have good values without believing in God. Just 30% say it is necessary to believe in God in order to be moral and have good values.

    Half of highly religious Americans say that belief in God is necessary to be moral and have good values, and 61% say there are clear and absolute standards for right and wrong.78

    The survey also asked Americans about various factors they may consider when making moral decisions.

    Slightly more than half of Americans (53%) say religious teachings and beliefs are extremely important or very important when making decisions between right and wrong. But the percentage of U.S. adults who say this is considerably lower than the shares who view practical experience and common sense (93%), logic and reason (92%) and scientific information (75%) as extremely or very important for moral decision-making.

    The vast majority of U.S. adults at all levels of religiousness say that “practical experience and common sense” and “logic and reason” are extremely or very important for deciding between right and wrong.

    Highly religious Americans are less likely than those with low levels of religious engagement to consider scientific information to be an important factor in moral decisions. Nevertheless, a clear majority of the highly religious (67%) view scientific information as important.

    Not surprisingly, Americans who are highly religious are much more likely than those with low religious engagement to view religious principles as important for deciding between right and wrong. Overall, 94% of highly religious Americans say religious teachings and beliefs are extremely or very important to how they think about matters of right and wrong.79

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  • Don
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    • February 27, 2025 at 6:38 AM
    • #3

    Thanks for pointing those out, Kalosyni !

    That's a little more encouraging. I hadn't dug that far into the report.

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    Cassius
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    • February 27, 2025 at 8:34 AM
    • #4
    Quote from Don

    We got some work to do

    Very much true.

    If supernatural religion, and life after death with reward and punishment are true, then the Epicurean worldview makes no sense.

    If the Epicurean worldview is true, then supernatural religion and life after death with reward and punishment make no sense.

    Pointing this out doesn't mean that we have to go on a crusade and hit people over the head with a crowbar with these issues on first meeting. Probably all of us here, and even Epicurus and the founders of the school themselves, started out being taught and believing to at least some extent a standard religious worldview. It would be very hypocritical to lock out people "who are well-disposed" from coming to the same adjustments in thinking that we went through ourselves. Some will never be disposed to accept these views, but many can and will.

    As Bryan cited in our zoom last night, Lucretius said in Book Three (this is the 1743 / Daniel Brown / Dunster? translation):

    Quote from Lucretius Book 3

    [307] The mind of man is formed of the same principles; though the discipline of philosophy may polish and correct some, yet it leaves behind the marks of the original nature of the mind, nor are we to think that the seeds of vice can be wholly rooted out. One man, we see, runs more rashly into passion, another is more disposed to fear, and a third is apt to be more merciful than just; It is impossible but the various tempers of mankind, and actions that follow them, must differ in many other instances, the reasons of which are at present out of my power to explain; nor can I find words to express that variety of figures by which the seeds are distinguished, and from which this variety of disposition is produced. This, however, may justly be asserted on this occasion: that the traces of original nature which cannot be corrected by the rules of reason are so very small that nothing hinders us from leading a life worthy of the Gods.

    If we're concerned about living the best life that we can, and we should be, then we have to plan out how to work toward as complete an implementation of core Epicurean positions as possible. And in most cases, we'll want to do that without getting driven out of our towns (Epicurus) or stoned (the Epicurean in Alexander the Oracle-Monger). :)

  • Eikadistes
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    • February 27, 2025 at 9:19 AM
    • #5

    I wonder how many astrology-and-tarot "Nones" are going back to their childhood religion.

  • Novem
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    • February 27, 2025 at 11:53 AM
    • #6

    Has anyone identified as Epicurean in official surveys when asked by a pollster? Even the Census?

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    Cassius
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    • February 27, 2025 at 12:15 PM
    • #7

    Ha. I bet not yet 😀

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    Kalosyni
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    • February 27, 2025 at 12:37 PM
    • #8
    Quote from Novem

    Has anyone identified as Epicurean in official surveys when asked by a pollster? Even the Census?

    There was probably a time when few atheists would admit it in a survey.

    There would need to be a significant cultural movement before Epicureanism would ever come up.

    I also wonder how they conduct the Pew Research (will need to look into it) because some states in US are very different than others.

    Quote from Cassius

    If supernatural religion, and life after death with reward and punishment are true, then the Epicurean worldview makes no sense.

    If the Epicurean worldview is true, then supernatural religion and life after death with reward and punishment make no sense.

    Pointing this out doesn't mean that we have to go on a crusade and hit people over the head with a crowbar with these issues on first meeting.

    In my opinion, due to the awareness and tolerance toward atheism (in most big cities), it seems that it would be important to present Principal Doctrine 1 ... "non-involvement of God with humankind" before anyone comes to a meeting.

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    • February 27, 2025 at 7:53 PM
    • #9
    Quote from Novem

    Has anyone identified as Epicurean in official surveys when asked by a pollster? Even the Census?

    The census doesn't like it. :(

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    • February 27, 2025 at 8:42 PM
    • #10

    Here is the Pew methodology...

    Short excerpt:

    Quote

    A total of 205,100 sampled addresses were mailed survey invitations. Respondents were given a choice to complete the survey online, by mail, or by calling a toll-free number and completing the survey over the phone with an interviewer. Of the 36,908 U.S. adults who completed the survey, 25,250 did so online, 10,733 did so by mail, and 925 did so by phone.

    Source

  • Titus
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    • February 28, 2025 at 7:22 AM
    • #11
    Quote from Cassius

    If supernatural religion, and life after death with reward and punishment are true, then the Epicurean worldview makes no sense.

    If the Epicurean worldview is true, then supernatural religion and life after death with reward and punishment make no sense.

    I would argue that both statements can be true. Both worldviews can lead to a life filled up with pleasure and enjoyment.

    The difference is Epicureanism is reaching out for a straightforward understanding of the world. It offers in simple terms everything we can ever hope to learn about the mechanisms of the universe and their implications for how to live a good life.

    (Supernatural) Religion is a mechanism of life that very often benefits the people pursuing it. In a functional way of understanding it can make sense, as it helps people to connect with each other, giving an ethical framework and trust in the world.

    We all know there are side effects, but there is a reason why people put their trust into systems of supernatural religion.

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    Cassius
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    • February 28, 2025 at 9:53 AM
    • #12
    Quote from Titus

    (Supernatural) Religion is a mechanism of life that very often benefits the people pursuing it. In a functional way of understanding it can make sense, as it helps people to connect with each other, giving an ethical framework and trust in the world.

    Yes, but the same could be said for cannibalism or any other system of the type that Epicurus references in PD10. No matter how ridiculous the system, since there is in fact no "fate" or "supernatural gods." then it is "possible" for even the most upside down theories to provide pleasure at least for short periods of time. It's probably greatly exciting and even pleasurable for the first couple of seconds to fly through the air after jumping off a skyscraper. And there are examples of terrible people who succeed in remaining on the top of the heap for very long periods of time.

    So yes even supernatural religion "can" sometimes lead to success, and in fact Epicurus says it would be better to believe in such things rather than give in to hard determinism.

    But I don't think that observations makes "both statements true" in terms of them "making sense." It does not "make sense" to structure one's life based on fantasies and made-up notions about supernatural forces unless you are in an extremely unusual situation -- extreme to the point of practical nonexistence.

    Also I think it's useful to point out that you're right that supernatural religion does give people a way to "connect" with each other and provides an ethical framework. That's why "connecting" -- even "friendship" itself -- has to be seen for what it is -- a TOOL, and "instrument," which is sometimes very productive, and sometimes the worst thing you can do. Unless you have solid plans to be the "top cannibal" yourself, I wouldn't want to be a "connected" with a group of cannibals.

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    Kalosyni
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    • February 28, 2025 at 10:01 AM
    • #13

    Here is another interesting section from the Pew Research:

    23. Religion and views of science
    Americans are split over whether religion and science are compatible or in conflict. But more see science as beneficial than as harmful for society. Religious…
    www.pewresearch.org
    Quote from Titus

    (Supernatural) Religion is a mechanism of life that very often benefits the people pursuing it. In a functional way of understanding it can make sense, as it helps people to connect with each other, giving an ethical framework and trust in the world.

    Yes it has the ability to create a common goal for uniting a community of people.

    Unfortunately is has been used for nefarious purposes over and over again, for those who are in control of the masses and want to maintain power over them.

    Also, the "set aside reason" and instead "just have faith and believe" reinforces a lack of rational thinking skills that are needed to have a well-running government and political system ---> let's just go by "what God wants" (which is just an intuitive feeling rather than actually looking at long term results or consequences) and which is a great way for those at the top to do what ever they want.

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    Kalosyni
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    • February 28, 2025 at 11:12 AM
    • #14
    Quote from Titus

    trust in the world.

    Unfortunately for many religious people they are united by their distrust in the world, and their hope for something other than the world ---> seeking to transcend the world rather than inhabit the world, and seeking for a heavenly afterlife.

    And prayer is their "Harry Potter magic wand" (which may only work 50 percent of the time, depending on what they pray for). Here is an interesting article on prayer by Psychology Today.

  • Titus
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    • February 28, 2025 at 12:25 PM
    • #15
    Quote from Kalosyni

    Unfortunately for many religious people they are united by their distrust in the world, and their hope for something other than the world ---> seeking to transcend the world rather than inhabit the world, and seeking for a heavenly afterlife.

    Ironically, from an outsider's perspective it almost always seems to materialize in socialising, setting up frameworks etc. I can hardly recognize anything otherworldly. It's always about this world.

    Yes, every kind of religious system is imperfect, but:

    Quote from Cassius

    So yes even supernatural religion "can" sometimes lead to success, and in fact Epicurus says it would be better to believe in such things rather than give in to hard determinism.

    This is the point. People aren't yet ready for the philosopher's stone. One ideology seems to exchange for another and even the atheist's pursue new agendas.

    Quote from Cassius

    But I don't think that observations makes "both statements true" in terms of them "making sense." It does not "make sense" to structure one's life based on fantasies and made-up notions about supernatural forces unless you are in an extremely unusual situation -- extreme to the point of practical nonexistence.

    I speak from a perspective of Epicurean "universalism". ;)

    I would argue that even if they say they pursue the afterlife and are not seeking pleasure they are lying or not recognising their reality. It's as obvious as water is wet and the sunlight at noon is bright to me.

    I agree with you, that the stories may misguide them but on the other hand the force of our innate pleasure-pain-mechanism is immensely powerful. No-one can escape this reality.

    Quote from Cassius

    If supernatural religion, and life after death with reward and punishment are true, then the Epicurean worldview makes no sense.

    Even in this case people are seeking pleasure (reward). Additionally, as long as I am in this world, I am still rewarded with pleasant impressions.

    I know, from a logical point of view both arguments exclude each other. But I think, the Epicurean perspective overturns this logic epistemologically.

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    Kalosyni
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    • February 28, 2025 at 2:13 PM
    • #16
    Quote from Titus

    I would argue that even if they say they pursue the afterlife and are not seeking pleasure they are lying or not recognising their reality. It's as obvious as water is wet and the sunlight at noon is bright to me.

    I agree with you, that the stories may misguide them but on the other hand the force of our innate pleasure-pain-mechanism is immensely powerful. No-one can escape this reality.

    I must be still affected by my upbringing as a child, which was strict Christian fundamentalist, and they would end the church service by asking if anyone wanted to become "saved" and which was understood as "saved from hell"...so it was an appeal to the desire to remove the pain of uncertainty after death.

    As I think about it, the most pleasure oriented religion now would be Neo-paganism (vastly different than Christianity).

    We can see some form of ancient paganism in Lucretius, when he appeals to Venus at the start of his proem:

    "Mother of Rome, delight of Gods and men,
    Dear Venus that beneath the gliding stars
    Makest to teem the many-voyaged main
    And fruitful lands- for all of living things
    Through thee alone are evermore conceived,
    Through thee are risen to visit the great sun-
    Before thee, Goddess, and thy coming on,
    Flee stormy wind and massy cloud away,
    For thee the daedal Earth bears scented flowers,
    For thee waters of the unvexed deep
    Smile, and the hollows of the serene sky
    Glow with diffused radiance for thee!"

    Source

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    • February 28, 2025 at 2:41 PM
    • #17
    Quote from Titus

    Even in this case people are seeking pleasure (reward). Additionally, as long as I am in this world, I am still rewarded with pleasant impressions.

    I know, from a logical point of view both arguments exclude each other. But I think, the Epicurean perspective overturns this logic epistemologically.


    I think some of this discussion revolves around the issue of "psychological hedonism" and I will be the first to admit that I have never found "psychological hedonism" to be a very helpful way to analyze things.

    Saying that "You're doing what you're doing - whatever you're doing - because you think it will bring you pleasure" does not seem to me to be a very helpful way of looking at much of anything. I realize that many people that this helps them defend "hedonism," and if so than I suppose whatever floats one's boat is good.

    But to me, it's an argument that smacks of circularity and even disrespect for the other person who is earnestly suggesting that whatever they are pursuing is not pleasure at all.

    I'm all for a very wide perspective on what the word "pleasure" includes, but once you've come to the place in a discussion where you disagree with someone on their definition, it doesn't seem to me that anything helpful is achieved by saying "you really agree with and you're just not willing to admit it."

    Most of the time in an Epicurean vs Non-Epicurean discussion, the issue comes down to the fact that Epicureans say that Nature tthrough the faculty of pleasure and pain is the proper standard to which to look on how to live, and the non-Epicureans are saying "Supernaturalism or logic of virtue is the proper standard too look to on how to live." And the debate btweeen those two standards is important tto address directly.

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    • February 28, 2025 at 4:11 PM
    • #18
    Quote from Kalosyni

    I must be still affected by my upbringing as a child, which was strict Christian fundamentalist, and they would end the church service by asking if anyone wanted to become "saved" and which was understood as "saved from hell"...so it was an appeal to the desire to remove the pain of uncertainty after death.

    I am sorry for underestimating the influence that religious views seem to have - perhaps I've been to long outside of the discourse.

    Quote from Cassius

    Saying that "You're doing what you're doing - whatever you're doing - because you think it will bring you pleasure" does not seem to me to be a very helpful way of looking at much of anything. I realize that many people that this helps them defend "hedonism," and if so than I suppose whatever floats one's boat is good.

    But to me, it's an argument that smacks of circularity and even disrespect for the other person who is earnestly suggesting that whatever they are pursuing is not pleasure at all.

    You are right that it would be disrespectful and it also cancels the opportunity to grasp the meaning of what the partner in a discussion is talking about. But from my personal point of view I would argue this is - more or less - the way we work as humans.

    I can put your mind at ease - I would never argue about religion this way to a stranger ;)

  • Patrikios
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    • February 28, 2025 at 4:14 PM
    • #19
    Quote from Cassius

    Most of the time in an Epicurean vs Non-Epicurean discussion, the issue comes down to the fact that Epicureans say that Nature through the faculty of pleasure and pain is the proper standard to which to look on how to live, and the non-Epicureans are saying "Supernaturalism or logic of virtue is the proper standard too look to on how to live." And the debate btweeen those two standards is important tto address directly.


    In my everyday conversations with family and friends who are practicing Christians, another key topic to consider is the ‘telos’ of our respective lives. When I explain that a life of wellbeing (eudaemonia) is what the Epicurean philosophy leads to, using prudent reasoning of the pleasure-pain choices (vs public perception of unchecked hedonism); that seems to open a less confrontational dialogue. Then we can get into proper positioning of PD-5 about “living wisely, honorably, and justly“ in order to live pleasantly. There can often be more agreement around that approach, before getting into the more controversial details around afterlife vs death’s finality.


    Thanks for this enlightening discussion that helps us in explaining our philosophy and how we practice this in our daily lives!🙏

    Patrikios

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    Cassius
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    • February 28, 2025 at 4:34 PM
    • #20
    Quote from Patrikios

    Then we can get into proper positioning of PD-5 about “living wisely, honorably, and justly“ in order to live pleasantly. There can often be more agreement around that approach, before getting into the more controversial details around afterlife vs death’s finality.

    There's definitely a time and place for everything. As Titus said (which is reflected in the Lucian story of the Epicurean who almost got attacked by the local religiious crowd) you have to be very careful what you say to very religious people, who frequently are very intolerant.

    To me the big picture is that you have to look at your circumstances and do what makes the most sense. But in the end, after you look at your circumstances, you then act to change them if you can. As Epicurus says in the last of the PD's if you find yourself surrounded by people who have very different world-views from yours, you probably need to rethink how and where you are spending your time.

    Of course we can't change everything about our circumstances in an instance, or overnight. But in the end the overriding consideration to me is that life is short, so we can't indefinitely delay the hard decisions that lead to the happiest living. To me it's a very big deal not to think that I was lazy or procrastinating of just didn't have enough courage to take the steps that would lead to the best life possible to me. In the past lots of people crossed oceans and deserts and mountains and gave up their lives looking for a "better life," and I'd like to think that I haven't become so "soft" that I'm not willing to make hard choices myself.

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