Thanks for that. I find that in a group -- with mostly extroverts -- I sometimes talk compulsively, like I need to "fit in." When being quiet, and in a quiet mind, is what I want. So, I'm going to be quiet now, and check out Susan Cain.
Cultivation of Friendship within Epicureanism
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Cain's book was a revelation for me. Specifically, she talked about introverts who can be gregarious at parties, great public speakers, etc., but who also get exhausted by that (even though they find it enjoyable!) and need alone time to "recharge their batteries." I was like "Hey! I recognize that person!"
I hope you enjoy it. I think she has some videos or TED Talks on her introvert research too if you don't want to read the whole book.
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Thanks again, Don.
BTW, I got 17 out of 20 "true" on her quiz -- and two of the three "falses" were really borderline. Now I am going quiet.
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Here is an very good article:
Some excerpts, and link follows:
QuotePeople need friends. They are literally lifeblood in terms of physical, cognitive and emotional wellbeing. And work is an important place to make friends and feel a sense of connection and community. Dunbar says it best, “We forget that at our peril, and businesses forget it at their peril.” With loneliness on the rise and wellbeing on the decline, the opportunity today is significant—to reinvent the experience of work so it’s a venue for meaning, community and friendship.
QuoteThe Fisherman’s Friend study found it takes about 34 hours of investment to shift from a more superficial acquaintance to a true friendship. In addition, the average friendship requires about 11 interactions and each one should last about three hours—clearly longer than a cup of tea. With this investment of time, making a friend takes about five and a half months. And this is no small thing in a fast-paced, over-scheduled, time-impoverished world.
QuotePeople also tend to build the strongest friendships with those they believe to be most similar to themselves. Dunbar says it takes so long to create a true friendship because you’re looking for seven pillars of friendship—similarities in the following dimensions: the way you speak (dialect), hobbies and interests, religious views, moral views, sense of humor, musical taste and career trajectory.
New Study: Making Friends Is Hard But Work Can HelpSocial isolation and loneliness have become wide-spread and a majority of people say they are actively looking for more friends—and in particular—close…www.forbes.com -
So far, my favorite part of this philosophy is the celebration of friendships and community. When I left the church, the first thing I missed was that sense of community. Since 2017, I have made an effort to grow and maintain my friendships.
With that said, I am surprised that there is not more focus on friendships here. Unless I am missing something?
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With that said, I am surprised that there is not more focus on friendships here. Unless I am missing something?
One complication is that we're all spread across the world.
That said, Kalosyni and Cassius have led efforts to have more online social opportunities including book discussions, happy hours, monthly 20th gatherings, etc. Those have been wonderful opportunities to meet real people, have conversations, and establish friendships as far as one can across vast time zones. If one wants to call those acquaintances or friendships is a matter of semantics I suppose. I've personally felt welcomed here, and have shared, privately and publicly, tragedies and triumphs with friends I've made here. I also probably wouldn't have "stuck with" Epicureanism these past five years if not for this Garden. That's my personal response.
That said, if you're talking about expecting more discussions concerning friendship, I could see that being beneficial. I'm glad to hear that the philosophy has been beneficial in your friendships! That's the kind of practical application that is encouraged here. But I could see more threads on "what does Epicurean friendship mean in the modern world without Gardens available?" to be interesting and helpful.
That turned into a longer post than initially intended I hope that addresses your concern a bit.
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Don summarizes the situation very well.
One aspect I would emphasize is that working together on joint projects here has been a great friendship-builder, and it is those people who have done that who I think get the most out of the forum.
If you have ideas Randall please be sure to share them.
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Thanks y'all. I would like to see more resources here on how to cultivate and maintain friendships.
Speaking for myself as a 26 year old American, my peers rely on social media for their social lives. I have made an effort to find friends through hobbies such as D&D. The house I share with my roommates is the primary meet up spot for D&D, board games, MtG, CoD, movies, dinners, and nights around the fire pit.
I'm curious what y'all think about this question, "What place do games have in Epicurean philosophy?"
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I'm curious what y'all think about this question, "What place do games have in Epicurean philosophy?"
- Do they give you pleasure?
- Are they harming you in any way?
- Do they do harm to others?
Answer those three questions about games and you're well on your way to answering your question.
It also sounds like you and your friends enjoy them together. Another plus.
That's my take.
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Quote
I'm curious what y'all think about this question, "What place do games have in Epicurean philosophy?"
I think that's a very good question, though it may be difficult to answer fully--although I think Don's answer settles the main point.
The Greeks were to a remarkable extent a gaming civilization--so much so that they literally set their calendars by it. They valued their games--Olympic, Pythian, Isthmian, Nemean, and other local affairs--for some of the same reasons we do; in the first place, because they helped to foster a unified and pan-Hellenic cultural identity. They aided in cultivating good relationships between City States.
In a remarkable passage in Xenophon's Anabasis, a mercenary army of 10,000 free Greeks that has just been marching for months overland across the whole length and breadth of hostile Persia finally reaches safety in the Greek colonies on the coast of the Black Sea, and they celebrate their immense good fortune by playing games! Extraordinary! I think if it were me I would have collapsed in a chair and not stirred for three months. The ended a forced march across difficult and dangerous terrain by celebrating with foot races, wrestling, discus and javelin.
So what did Epicurus think about all of this? On the question of Epicurus' alleged rejection of Greek culture Norman DeWitt has this to say;
QuoteThis Platonic program consisted of music and gymnastic, inherited
from the Athenian past; of rhetoric, which had been introduced by the
sophists; and of dialectic and mathematics, especially geometry, which
were the addition of Plato himself.
Toward every component of this prevailing education the attitude of
Epicurus was determined by the nature of the objective adopted for his
own program. This objective was not the production of a good citizen
but a happy and contented man. For practical purposes this happiness
was defined as health of mind and health of body. The famous prayer
for mens Sana in corpore sano, “a sound mind in a sound body,” recom¬
mended by Juvenal, is genuine Epicureanism.
This being the case, there was no reason for rejecting physical training,
and approval of it was the easier not only because the laws required
it — and Epicurus recommended obedience to the laws — but also for the
reason that the amateur athlete and the citizen soldier were being
replaced by the professional athlete and the professional soldier. Thus
the rigors of the required exercises could be relaxed.
As for music, there need be little doubt that the approval of Epicurus
was enthusiastic. His own capacity for appreciating good music seems to
have been keen. It is told of him that he would arise early in the morning
and trudge to the theater to enjoy the performance
And then are there the tabletop games of Ancient Greece, most of which were distinguished by the common feature of gambling on chance. I suspect that Epicurus would have cautioned against gambling, though of course I don't know that.
In any case, playing a game for the game's own sake is a very human pasttime, enjoyed among friends, and yielding pleasure--and for those reasons is very much worth doing. Play like the Greeks!
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I agree with the above answers which in most general form comes down to "Do the games being you more pleasure than pain, all things considered?"
Maybe the greater concern than the games is over-reliance on social media for social interaction.
We definitely need to develop some material on:
1 - Practical tips on cultivation of real-life friendships.
2 - Practical tips on management of social media engagement.
At the very least we need to find ways to focus social media interactions to be mainly with real world friends rather than people so extended away from us that interaction with them is little more than as with AI or bots or caricatures of real people.
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(Just updated my post 31 above with more detail. I see Randall is a night owl too.)
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I agree with the aboce answers which in most general form is "Do the games being you more pleasure than pain, all things considered?"
Maybe the greater concern than the games is over-reliance on social media for social interaction.
I hear this a lot and I tend to agree. I am still balancing social media and media in general in my own life. I was 8 when the first iPhone came out and I remember how much it changed our lives. In short, I know only a little of a life without the impact of Facebook, Twitter, Reddit, etc. I doubt I know the full extent of that impact. Whatever the case, I am working to spend more times with my friends, with us in the same room and without our faces lit by screens. Especially after experiencing the lockdowns. I'm figuring it out as I go.
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I will add that "online gaming" can engender and preserve friendships that would otherwise wither. I know people that have maintained friendships from high school and college or created lifelong friends with online gaming. Even separated by miles and time zones, friends get together to play while at the same time talking and maintaining ties. They still get together in real life when possible, but online gaming is a platform that allows regular camaraderie.
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Thanks y'all. I would like to see more resources here on how to cultivate and maintain friendships.
Speaking for myself as a 26 year old American, my peers rely on social media for their social lives. I have made an effort to find friends through hobbies such as D&D. The house I share with my roommates is the primary meet up spot for D&D, board games, MtG, CoD, movies, dinners, and nights around the fire pit.
I'm curious what y'all think about this question, "What place do games have in Epicurean philosophy?"
A KEY place (I think)! I need to go back and find my source, because I only have this scribble in my notes, but I recall that Eikas celebrations would have hosted a game called Kataktos, what I believe is ... basically ancient Beer Pong (with wine), so I think parlor games like darts, ping pong, and billiards are particularly appropriate. That said, I am a gamer, and I miss the days when card games and board games were more-widely-practiced forms of recreation, so games are key for me; that absolutely extends into the world of D&D, and digital gaming, and MMOs so long as they engender friendship.
Someone fact-check me on Kataktos though because I meant to bring it up, but I didn't leave myself a source.
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Kottabos - Wikipediaen.wikipedia.org
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Kalosyni
August 17, 2023 at 3:07 PM Moved the thread from forum Daily Life As An Epicurean to forum On Friendship - Psychology and Practical Exercises. -
Cassius
August 24, 2023 at 2:24 PM Moved the thread from forum On Friendship - Practical Applications to forum Friendship. -
An Epicurean style take on happiness I stumbled upon:
What actually makes us happy (axios.com)
Gotta love it:
>>Know what counts as connection. Focus on real-time communication, which isn't a text or posting on someone's social media feed. As primates, we're evolved for live conversations, which can be virtual.<<
>>Happiness doesn't mean dispelling all negative emotions, which are part of what make us human. "I think especially in the tough times we're dealing with, negative emotions are normative. We need to pay attention to them because they're signaling changes that we need to make," Santos says. "Happiness really is about a decent ratio of positive to negative emotions."<<
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This article has some good tips (and this is the source which I referenced during tonight's First Monday Zoom):
How to Keep Adult FriendshipsLearn more about adult friendships, why they’re good for your health, how to nurture friendships, how to reach out to friends, and what to do if things go bad.www.webmd.comQuoteHow to Be a Good Friend
To keep your relationships strong and healthy, be a good friend. Healthy friendships are reciprocal, with plenty of give-and-take. “Be as good to your friends as you want them to be to you,” Cazeau says.
Try these tips to nurture your friendship:
Be a safe space. Give your friend the freedom to express themselves. “Being a safe space where your friend can share and vent without any judgment can be vital to their mental health,” Cazeau says. Try not to jump in with solutions to their problems. Your friend may simply want to talk about something that’s on their mind.
Be present. Make the time you spend together count. Put away your cell phone. Avoid distractions. Ask questions, and be an active listener. Engage in the conversation. Use good eye contact.
Be kind. Small acts of kindness add up. Tell your friend how much they mean to you, Cazeau says. Celebrate their wins. Remember their birthday with a card or a gift. Try to avoid criticism and negativity, which can pull a friendship down.
Open up. Sharing feelings and experiences brings friends closer by creating intimacy. Show your friend that you trust them by talking freely about what you think and how you feel. This can make your connection deeper.
Be reliable. When your friend knows that they can count on you, it keeps your relationship strong. If you flake out on plans or don’t keep their secrets, it will suffer. Show up on time when you have plans. Do what you say you’ll do. And keep confidential information to yourself.
Curb competitive feelings. “Try not to compare yourself to your friends,” McCrink advises. “This can be really tough, but it’s poisonous to friendships.”
In her 20s, when many of McCrink’s friends got married, she started to feel uncomfortable about being single. “It consumed me to the point where I rushed into a marriage that wasn’t right for me,” she says.
Instead of making comparisons, be your friend’s cheerleader. “Embrace where you are in your own journey and lift your friends up to keep the relationships strong,” McCrink says.
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If a friendship will produce more pain in the long run (although that seems difficult to achieve), then we should end it, or at least de-attach us.
Or conclude either that (1) it is not a friendship at all, or (2) our definition of friendship needs reworking.
Agreed, even the Vatican sayings have a passage about toxic friendships. I don't think it unreasonable to expect your friends to be as good at being a friend as you are, so long as you forgive circumstance, as a good friend should.
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