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Thomas Nail - Returning to Lucretius

  • Kalosyni
  • January 13, 2026 at 9:49 PM
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  • Kalosyni
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    • January 13, 2026 at 9:49 PM
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    The following page contains a long explanation by the author Thomas Nail (Professor of Philosophy at the University of Denver) of his ideas regarding Lucretius, including his stance that Lucretius never used the word "atoms".

    Returning to Lucretius
    Why Return to Lucretius? I think a new Lucretius is coming into view today. Every period in Western history since Lucretius has returned to him like bees…
    philosophy-of-movement.com

    I've read about 2/3 of this and there is a lot to unpack. Since we are currently studying Lucretius at the weekly Sunday Zoom, then this may be of interest.

    Quote

    1. First Counter-Thesis: “Lucretius was not an Atomist”

    The difference between Lucretius and the earlier Greek atomists is precisely that—the atom. For Leucippus, Democritus, and Epicurus atoms are always in motion, but the atom itself remains fundamentally unchanged, indivisible, and thus internally static—even as it moves. Instead of positing discrete atoms as ontologically primary as both ancient Greek and later modern theories do, one of Lucretius’ greatest novelties was to posit the movement or flow of matter as primary. I think Lucretius did not simply “translate Epicurus;” he transformed him.

    For example, although Lucretius could have easily Latinized the Greek word atomos as atomus [smallest particle], as Cicero did, he intentionally did not, nor did he use the Latin word particula or particle to describe matter. The English translations of “atom,” “particle,” and others have all been added to the text based on a certain historical interpretation of it. The idea that Lucretius subscribed to a world of discrete particles called atoms is therefore both a projection of Epicureanism and a retroaction of modern scientific theories of mechanism onto De Rerum Natura. As such, Lucretitus’ writings have been crushed by the weight of his past and future at the same time.

  • Eikadistes
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    • January 13, 2026 at 9:54 PM
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    That's what I found, as well. H. A. J. Munro is the only author I've found who seems to consistently stick to Lucretius' neologisms, as opposed to inserting modern scientific jargon. I made a list of the vocabulary words and phrases that Lucretius uses when referring to particles here.

  • Cassius
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    • January 14, 2026 at 4:10 AM
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    I just read the article. I agree with some of Nail's points on ethics (especially his implicit or explicit criticism of too much focus on static / katastematic ideas) but I am not seeing the profound differences between Lucretius and Epicurus that he claims to see as to particles or the resulting nature of the universe.

    In fact I don't think his article gives a clear statement of where he is going with his whole argument. He seems to think there are profound implications in Lucretius deviating from Epicurus - but so far as I can tell he is not explaining what significance there is in what he is seeing.

    I gather he is focusing on implications of motion but I see no reason why what he talks about as to motion is not already in Epicurus.

    The article has lots of energetic argument but at least for me I don't see why he is so worked up.

    Eikadistes I know you have written recently on this. What so you see to be the implications of his argument?

  • Cassius
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    • January 14, 2026 at 4:30 AM
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    Also Eikadistes I just glanced back over your recent article. What you wrote makes perfect sense to me in going over the many different words that were used as apparent synonyms for particles and stressing that we should pay attention to them.

    But while I see you making the important point that Epicurus was significantly different from Democritus and Leucippus, I don't see you saying that there are any profound differences between Epicurus and Lucretius.

    Your article seems very clear and helpful. This one by Nail strikes me much differently as implying profound differences between Epicurus and Lucretius which are not clearly explained. I have not generally found the contention that Lucretius differs significantly from Epicurus to be helpful or well grounded in persuasive argument, and that's how I react to this article too.

    So at this moment my reaction is that I completely endorse anyone taking the time to read your article. On the other hand I doubt that the Nail article is a good use of time for most readers. Please correct me if you think i am off base!


    Thread

    Epicurus Was Not an Atomist (...sort of)

    epicureanfriends.com/wcf/attachment/6015/

    Greetings, all! I published some thoughts about the limitations in our employment of the word "atomism" as an expression of ancient Epicurean particle physics. I'll admit that I might be splitting hairs here, and exploiting a post-structuralist position about the symbols and their context ... I read a lot of Derrida back in college. I apologize in advance. ^^

    In a nutshell:

    • The notions of "atomism" and "ancient Epicurean particle physics" can be contrasted
    …
    Eikadistes
    December 22, 2025 at 2:24 PM
  • Cassius
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    • January 14, 2026 at 4:56 AM
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    One more comment:

    If what Nail is saying is that he sees much more emphasis on motion in Lucretius than he does in Epicurus, and that this is why we should not be overly focused on anything that is static, then I completely agree. I think motion is a critical component of Epicurean thought that deserves emphasis.

    But I don't think that Epicurus failed to emphasize motion if he is perceived by some to do so, it is because people are obsessed with the discussion of katastematic vs static pleasure, as Nail discusses in his ethics section. If Nail is making the point that there are more profound implications of motion in ethics than people appreciate due to modern over-focus on ataraxia, then I agree with him.

    But as I read the article he is more focused on something else, presumably elated to the universe being something other than discrete particles. (Is he arguing for a "plenum"?) I don't see Lucretius doing that at all nor do I think looking in that direction leads to anything helpful.

  • Bryan
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    • January 14, 2026 at 10:50 AM
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    • #6
    Quote from Kalosyni

    Lucretius never used the word "atoms"

    At every turn Lucretius is trying to translate, not transliterate, Epicurus. There are only a few exceptions (Such as homoeomeria, for which he apologizes for using only the transliteration.) To consider this translation a transformation is of course in part true, but Lucretius at every point, where we have Epicurus' words on the same topic, succeeded in producing very close translations of Epicurus' wording.

    Quote from Eikadistes

    H. A. J. Munro is the only author I've found who seems to consistently stick to Lucretius' neologisms

    I agree it is good to follow Lucretius very closely. Otherwise it seems surprising to learn that Lucretius did not use the word "atom." For example, I use "primary-beginnings" for prīmṓrdia and "first-beginnings " for principia.... but they do both mean "atom."

    Quote from Eikadistes

    I made a list

    This is very helpful! Thank you!

    Edited 3 times, last by Bryan (January 14, 2026 at 2:55 PM).

  • Cassius
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    • January 14, 2026 at 2:08 PM
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    Thanks for those comments Bryan. I suppose to nail down another aspect of this discussion, would you or anyone else here advocate for Lucretius taking off in a bold new direction from Epicurus as to the nature of atoms? I suppose an interesting case could be made that Lucretius differed from Epicurus on the advisability of writing poetry, but i bet even there would could find a way to reconcile them.

    But before we move past this topic we probably ought to address whether there's a persuasive argument that Lucretius tried to modify any core Epicurean doctrine, which seems to be the point Nail is arguing.

  • Eikadistes
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    • January 16, 2026 at 9:19 PM
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    Overwhelmingly, I find that Lucertius' neologisms compliment the insight of Epicurus. Referring to particles as "firstlings" is a great example. I actually think that he could have even added a few others, but, in general, I think his translation is a true homage to the source.


  • Patrikios
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    • January 24, 2026 at 2:18 PM
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    Quote from Cassius

    I just read the article. I agree with some of Nail's points on ethics (especially his implicit or explicit criticism of too much focus on static / katastematic ideas) but I am not seeing the profound differences between Lucretius and Epicurus that he claims to see as to particles or the resulting nature of the universe.

    In fact I don't think his article gives a clear statement of where he is going with his whole argument. He seems to think there are profound implications in Lucretius deviating from Epicurus - but so far as I can tell he is not explaining what significance there is in what he is seeing.

    I gather he is focusing on implications of motion but I see no reason why what he talks about as to motion is not already in Epicurus.

    The article has lots of energetic argument but at least for me I don't see why he is so worked up.

    Kalosyni ,

    Thanks for posting this paper by Nail. I am finding some profound enlightenment from the perspective presented.


    Cassius ,

    I may be misinterpreting Nail’s views but these are his statements that show a difference in approach to understanding how Lucretius describes the flow & folding.

    Quote

    Lucretius also prefigured quantum theory’s understanding of entanglement and indeterminacy.

    …
    Instead of talking about discrete particles, Lucretius talks endlessly about flows and folds. These are the core tenets of what I call Lucretius’ “kinetic materialism.” If matter does not flow it cannot fold; if it folds it must also flow. However, if we interpret Lucretius’ concept of corpora as ‘discrete particles’ or ‘atoms’ instead of flows, his whole conceptual edifice of folding [plex] (simplex, duplex, complex, amplex) completely unravels. Atoms simply cannot fold.

    …

    Since the soul and body come into being with their matters “woven” [inplexis] (3.331) together and “roots” [radicibus] (3.325) growing together, they are also “unwoven” or “untied” [dissolu-antur] (3.330) together as well. Since the soul and body are in constant motion, then it follows that the soul is always weaving.


    Modern quantum field theory describes "atomic particles" as emergent from wave functions when observed—which aligns precisely with what Nail's arguing about flows producing folds, not vice versa. Thus, I do see a difference between Epicurus and Lucretius describing the differing approaches of their physics. Sometimes artists, poets can interpret nature and reality in ‘flowing’ texts, or flowing brush stokes that provides a different perspective from a particle-driven viewpoint.

    I also find that this perspective of flows and weaving folds is reflected in how some indigenous cultures describe their connection with Nature (e.g. Mother Nature). They see the flows of nature, even in their own souls. In some indigenous cultures, the women (the creative life bearers) are the only ones allowed to weave, as that is their spiritual way of connecting to Mother Nature.

    Patrikios

    Edited once, last by Patrikios (January 24, 2026 at 7:17 PM).

  • Bryan
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    • January 24, 2026 at 7:06 PM
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    Quote

    However, if we interpret Lucretius’ concept of corpora as ‘discrete particles’ or ‘atoms’ instead of flows, his whole conceptual edifice of folding [plex] (simplex, duplex, complex, amplex) completely unravels. Atoms simply cannot fold.

    I do believe that Nail is alone in interpreting corpora as "flows." Corpora is a common and simple word that means "bodies." It is used by Lucretius, among many other terms, to refer to the primary particles ("atoms" in the literal sense of fundamental uncuttable units).

    The idea of "flow" will not be found in any dictionary entry for Corpora (link for example). There is no place in Latin literature where Corpora means anything close to "flows."


    Similarly, although the -plex ending in simplex, duplex, etc. does indeed etymologically come from “-fold”, nevertheless simplex, and duplex are the standard Latin words for "single and double" -- and forcing an actual and literal "fold" into the idea -- beyond "single-fold" meaning "single" and "two-fold" meaning "double" -- is another unique interpretation of Thomas Nail.

    Edited once, last by Bryan (January 24, 2026 at 8:18 PM).

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