Episode 292 - TD22 - Is Virtue Or Pleasure The Key To Overcoming Grief?

To further support Joshua's argument that starts at 16:00, I wanted to share these two quotes:

Plutarch, Non Posse, 28, p. 1105D: "If then 'The memory of a friend that has died is pleasant from every standpoint' as Epicurus said, indeed already it is possible to understand how much they deprive themselves of joy: believing they [passively] receive and [actively] pursue appearances and films of dead companions – in which neither mind exists, nor sensation – while they are not expecting to be truly united again with them (and to see their beloved father, and beloved mother, and even their helpful wife)."

Seneca, Letters to Lucilius, 63.7 (apparently quoting Epicurus): "For me, the thought of departed friends is sweet and pleasant: for I had them as though I would lose them – and I have lost them as though I still have them."

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Brilliant juxtaposition about prudence at 37:00! That needed to happen and you did a great job!

Agreed. Very solid episode. Thanks for everything y'all do week in week out.

A sidebar on grief, and its many layers...

One aspect to consider, which I think can only follow after the wailing war widow phase, is to parse out what exactly you are grieving. Is it for your loved one's experience of being no more? Are you grieving for yourself, as you live in loneliness? Is it the fear of moving on, and in doing so losing your memories of your loved one? Is it grief for what the deceased will never have a chance to do?

Then there's the practical aspect of moving forward and continuing to pursue your most fulfilling life. You're in a place that you never expected to be. You might be older and more vulnerable than in the past, realizing that you need to be open to life and new possibilities, and that you have to learn new ways of doing so.

Obviously there's much more. But Epicurus has provided a framework, if not a path, to continue to pursue your best life. His opponents, in their glib talk of manliness and strength. Have completely missed the point.

Quote from Godfrey

Then there's the practical aspect of moving forward and continuing to pursue your most fulfilling life. You're in a place that you never expected to be. You might be older and more vulnerable than in the past, realizing that you need to be open to life and new possibilities, and that you have to learn new ways of doing so.

Obviously there's much more. But Epicurus has provided a framework, if not a path, to continue to pursue your best life. His opponents, in their glib talk of manliness and strength. Have completely missed the point.

Godfrey

You make a good point how #grief of a loved one can put us in unfamiliar territory. There's a profound parallel between your observation about unexpected places in grief and the story about being in Oz.

When Dorothy landed in Oz, everything was unfamiliar - the landscape, the rules, even the very nature of reality had shifted. I think this is similar to the disorienting experience of grief of a close loved one. Grief is perhaps the ultimate Oz experience. You wake up in an emotional landscape you never chose to visit, where all the old certainties are gone.

As you said, we have to be "open to life and new possibilities." Through studies of the Epicurean framework, those experiencing grief can discover inner resources and support systems they hadn't recognized before.