New "TWENTIERS" Website

FYI...

DCLP/Trismegistos 62661 = LDAB 3847

Fwiw, here's a review of a critical edition of Polystratus' work (again, Google translate from the French)

Polistrato, Sul disprezzo irrazionale delle opinioni popolari. Edizione, traduzione e commento a cura di Giovanni Indelli - Persée

This work by Giovanni Indelli, which appears in a new collection of texts from the School of Epicurus contained in the Herculaneum papyri, is worthy of attention and interest for several reasons.

First of all, it gives us a global and nuanced overview of the identity, work and role of Polystratus within the School of Epicurus, most of whose texts have been lost, at least as far as the earliest period is concerned.

Then we have here a very careful critical edition, carried out using the most reliable techniques, and accompanied by a clear and faithful Italian translation, a documented introduction and a commentary written in an authentically philological and philosophical spirit.

Finally, the very content of Polystrate's text has an undeniable historical interest, and shows well, as Mr. Indelli emphasizes, the state of the discussions between the different post-Aristotelian schools. The Περί ἀλόγου καταφρονήσεως "is addressed to those who, while they despise popular opinions, nevertheless defend opinions even less acceptable, because they are not based on λόγος" (p. 28). The disciple of Epicurus, for his part, has no weakness for the ideas of the masses, but his criticism of their errors and superstitions is based on a knowledge of nature finalized by practical life. Indeed, to free oneself from the unhappiness that ignorance and prejudice cause and to lead a happy life, one must refer to the φρόνησις and the ὀρθὴ φυσιολογία which are taught to us by the doctrine of Epicurus and which allow us to attain perfect pleasure.

In this context Polystratus develops an articulate critique of a skeptical objection to the fundamental principles of the Garden: his opponents are suspicious of the effective existence of ethical concepts, whose validity is clearly changeable among individuals and peoples. Polystratus' solution to this problem, which Epicurus had not dealt with explicitly, is based on the difference between "relative" and "absolute" concepts. Even "relative" concepts, such as those of δυνάμεις and πράξεις, nevertheless have an effective validity and existence. On the other hand, a critique of popular opinions based on obscure principles and obvious falsehoods, such as that developed by his opponents, has no value, becomes dangerous and dishonest and, ultimately, is irrational.

Fabio CIARAMELLI.

Philodemus' On Choice and Avoidance has also made its appearance.

Happy Eikas!

The spirit moved me and I created a section for Nietzschean criticism of Epicurus. Let me know if you aware of any texts with explicit analyses of Epicurean Philosophy in Nietzsche's works!

Quote from Cassius

I note you're calling it criticism but you're also including the positive parts?

For sure, I'm including everything I can find. Most of it is complimentary.

Quote from Eikadistes

Quote from Cassius

I note you're calling it criticism but you're also including the positive parts?

For sure, I'm including everything I can find. Most of it is complimentary.

I just took that in the sense of "literary criticism". That site is an impressive anthology of resources!

Eikadistes I just came across this on your site:

"We pluck the night from the vine of time so we might forever savor the memory of its flavor."

That, my friend, is pure poetry!

I've also taken a swing at the Last Will.

After doing some digging, I learned that the Mētrō̂ion (Temple to the Mother Goddess) mentioned in the Will served a dual function in terms of overseeing the legal transfer of property.

Bryan 's dedicated transcription of Demetrios of Lakonia's fragments are inspiring. These are exactly the kinds of things I want to amass in a single location for comparison and study.

I took your transcription, put in on twentiers.com and, attempted (...heavy emphasis on "attempted"...) to provide my own translation (that needs improvement) so as not to claim your work.

Anyway! I want to find as many chunks of these sorts of texts as possible, and I mean to do so with respect to the original sources, therefore, if you can, please let me know (any one you) if you come across untranslated chunks that can be added. Likewise, I'm proud to host anyone's translations who would care to contribute to this growing resource. Anyway, thanks for your hard work!

Hello Eikadistes! Thank you, please feel free to use any part of my work in any way. For raw text, I just mine the p.herc section of the Digital Corpus of Literary Papyri. I'm sure you have been there, but that is my primary source.

Quote from Bryan

For raw text, I just mine the p.herc section of the Digital Corpus of Literary Papyri.

I do loves the papyri.info. A great place for images of the papyri themselves, too (for anyone perusing this thread).

All right, the spirit moved me, so I took a shot at translating Book X of Lives of Eminent Philosophers (with the exceptions of the Epistles to Herodotos and Pythokles).

Find it HERE.

Unfortunately, I did something and deleted all of my footnotes.

I'm re-building them now.

(I think I did a particularly fair job at re-rendering the poems in modern verse:)

"Farewell, and remember the doctrines" — Epíkouros [therewith ends,]
[He] said these final words [and] passed [among] his [dearest] friends;
For he went into a warm bathtub and drew [much] unmixed [wine],
Then drawn was [he to] frigid Hádēs [from which no one can climb].

This is excellent and I love it! Thank you. This version is much better than Hicks and the recent Oxford translation (by Pamela Mensch).

It should not seem like a relief that Epíkouros says he wanted to eat the cheese in his potlet -- until we consider that others, while practicing tyromancy, were staring into their cheese pots like crystal balls!

minor notes:

"...of friends [is] public..." I don't think you want that "i" italicized.

"On Nature" is rubricated but the other titles are not.

Quote from Bryan

This is excellent and I love it! Thank you. This version is much better than Hicks and the recent Oxford translation (by Pamela Mensch).

It should not seem like a relief that Epíkouros says he wanted to eat the cheese in his potlet -- until we consider that others, while practicing tyromancy, were staring into their cheese pots like crystal balls!

minor notes:

"...of friends [is] public..." I don't think you want that "i" italicized.

"On Nature" is rubricated but the other titles are not.

Thank you so much for that compliment! I appreciate the feedback!

All right! I've finished the Epistle to Pythoklēs!

I'll re-iterate for everyone that I'm finding tremendous value in this practice. Beyond advancing my understand of ancient Greek, this has really been a great exercise to try to get inside of Epicurus' head and understand, not simply his conclusions and doctrines, but his way of thinking and explaining.

His analogical reasoning relies on simple, personal observations that we all make (such as the correspondence between thunder and stomach aches, discharge of lightning and diarrhea). I was refreshed to discover how many anatomical words he uses to describe the features of nature.

From Pythoklēs, I have learned that the value of Epicurean geoscience, meteorology, and astronomy has less to do with his impressive, scientific foresight, and much more to do with its function as a Ethical tool to reduce anxiety. With Heródotos, I anticipate finding more accuracy with cosmology.

Also, I am loving his system of physical taxonomy:

Physics below our feet is Chthonic and above our heads is Meteoric.

Of meteoric phenomena, most are some kind of glowers.

Of glowers, there are our two, favorite glowers, to which we assign personal names (the Sun and the Moon ... or Helios and Selēnē) proper glowers (stars), wandering glowers (planets), feathered glowers (comets), falling glowers (meteors), and glowers-through-holes (lightning flashes).

Epicurus also emphatically states that the kósmos includes "the remaining glowers" not mentioned above, which should have included other objects visible to the naked eye, such as the asteroid Vesta. Since the Andromeda and Triangulum galaxies are (barely) visible with the naked eye, and since they would have been much more obvious 2,300 years ago, I wonder if it would therefore be appropriate to consider that the ancient Epicurean kósmos properly includes the entire Observable Universe?

Maybe I'll save that for another thread...

Also, in case anyone is interested, I made this as a tool for my study... [attached]

Every entry links to https://www.perseus.tufts.edu, which is the best resource I have found to confirm tenses and declensions. Speaking of tenses and declensions, if the spirit moves anyone, and they could use a hand with the language, feel free to ask me about mediopassive and aorist tenses.

This is exciting -- this is a brilliant and fun translation! You are bringing out a lot of different aspects and it is a joy looking over this!

For 91, I see "κατὰ μὲν τὸ πρὸς ἡμᾶς, according to what it is to us," as a contrast with "κατὰ δὲ τὸ καθ᾽ αὑτὸ, in relation to itself, or according to what it is in-and-of-itself." What do you think?

Ah, great observation! I see what you mean.

In the first line of 91:

"...κατὰ μὲν τὸ πρὸς ἡμᾶς..."

and then, paralleled, several clauses later:

"...κατὰ δὲ τὸ καθ᾽αὑτὸ..."

I totally agree. There should be a parallel there. I'm making that change.