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  4. Only Two Feelings - Pleasure and Pain - The Term Pleasure Includes Tranquility, Meaningfulness, Katastematic, Kinetic, Etc.
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Modern Neuroscience And The Katastematic / Kinetic Debate

  • Don
  • June 29, 2023 at 2:14 PM
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  • Little Rocker
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    • June 30, 2023 at 7:53 PM
    • #21

    This is a minefield, so I’ll just register an occurrent thought. Epicurus clearly thinks that all pleasures are perceived (or available to perception), so I find G&T compelling on that front. The thing is, if all pleasures are a kind of perception, and all perceptions are a kinesis, then all pleasures are kinetic. Some are (perhaps) just more kinetic than others. Now, you could invent a different kind of perception, one in which the subject and the object of perception are somehow the same (that’s, as I understand it, Aristotle’s attempted, semi-incoherent solution), but G&T don’t see any indication of that solution in Epicurus. And I'm not sure I do either.

    So for what it's worth, I'm inclined to think the difference is that katestematic pleasure is always there, always available to perception. I can call it to mind and experience it wherever I am. 'Kinetic' pleasure comes and goes. But that's just me shooting from the hip.

  • Don
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    • June 30, 2023 at 9:07 PM
    • #22
    Quote from Little Rocker

    This is a minefield

    ^^ LOL! Well, that hasn't stopped us before! 8o

    Pleasure appears to be a "feeling," since it is canonically defined as one of the two feelings of the canon.

    Is "feeling" a sensation? I would have to say yes, in the sense that every feeling is a sensation in the sense of PD2, but interestingly, Saint-Andre doesn't use sensation but awareness there:

    Death is nothing to us; for what has disintegrated lacks awareness, and what lacks awareness is nothing to us.

    We are *aware* when we are *feeling* pleasure...therefore, it seems to be that feelings = sensations.

    Or we may just be splitting hairs to no purpose:

    αἴσθησῐς (aísthēsis)

    • Perception from the senses, feeling, hearing, seeing
    • Perception by the intellect as well as the senses
    • That which is perceived: scent
    • Ability to perceive: discernment
    • Cognition or discernment of moral discernment in ethical matters
    Quote from Little Rocker

    So for what it's worth, I'm inclined to think the difference is that katestematic pleasure is always there, always available to perception. I can call it to mind and experience it wherever I am. 'Kinetic' pleasure comes and goes.

    Now, *THAT* I agree 100%! To continue on my soapbox/hobby horse: That's why we can be more confident in katastematic pleasures: They are always available to us. We can enjoy kinetic pleasures, but they are dependent on circumstances external to ourselves.

    I realize I still need to again read G&T (Why do I read that "gin & tonic"??) but then I think... do I? I need to back and read Epicurus and what's left of the Epicureans first, I think.

  • Don
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    • June 30, 2023 at 9:22 PM
    • #23
    Quote from Godfrey

    Don do you see homeostasis as being a helpful idea in sorting out this conundrum?

    I do think "homeostatis" is helpful, but... I've come to understand that the concept of "homeostasis" has been somewhat replaced by "allostasis." Ex.: "Clarifying the Roles of Homeostasis and Allostasis in Physiological Regulation" (2014)

    BUT when I talk (colloquially) about "homeostasis," I'm going to say that I mean an awareness of the well functioning of the body and mind accompanied by a state of satisfaction and contentment.

    *That* I think is helpful, and what I believe I would call "ataraxia."

    One thing I want to emphasize, too, is that I do not think there are only two katastematic pleasures, e.g., ataraxia and aponia; just like I don't think there are only two kinetic pleasures, e.g., khara and euphrosyne. Those are the four pleasures that Epicurus provides as his examples... but there is no way that those are the only four pleasures that Epicurus believed existed.

    Little Rocker's point about katastematic pleasures being always there, always available to perception is exactly right (in my opinion). Ataraxia is always available to be sensed (IF you're body and mind are working right with correct attitudes toward the gods and death etc.) BUT, from my perspective, we also always have access to our memories, to our anticipations (in the colloquial sense not the Epicurean canonic sense). That availability to access and/or generate a particular mental state is what I think katastematic pleasures are. They are not dependent on outside circumstances or chance or fortune.

  • Don
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    • June 30, 2023 at 10:09 PM
    • #24

    I return to this section of Diogenes Laertius (10.136) over and over again when this topic comes up:

    (Quote)

    [136] He (Epicurus) differs from the Cyrenaics with regard to pleasure (περὶ τῆς ἡδονῆς). They do not include under the term the pleasure which is a state of rest (τὴν καταστηματικὴν - tes katastematiken), but only that which consists in motion (ἐν κινήσει - en kinesei). Epicurus admits both (i.e., katastematiken and en kinesei); also pleasure of mind as well as of body (ψυχῆς καὶ σώματος),

    as he (Epicurus) states:

    1. in his work On Choice and Avoidance
    2. and in that On the Ethical End
    3. and in the first book of his work On Human Life
    4. and in the epistle to his philosopher friends in Mytilene
    5. So also Diogenes in the seventeenth book of his Epilecta
    6. and Metrodorus in his Timocrates, whose actual words are : "Thus pleasure being conceived both as that species which consists in motion (τε κατὰ κίνησιν (kinesin)) and that which is a state of rest (καταστηματικῆς (katastematikes))."
      1. "νοουμένης δὲ ἡδονῆς τῆς τε κατὰ κίνησιν (kinesin) καὶ τῆς καταστηματικῆς (katastematikes)."

    The words of Epicurus in his work On Choice (and Avoidance) are: "Peace of mind (ἀταραξία - ataraxia) and freedom from pain (ἀπονία - aponia) are pleasures which imply a state of rest (καταστηματικαί - katastematikai); joy (χαρὰ khara) and delight (εὐφροσύνη euphrosyne) are seen to consist in motion and activity (κατὰ κίνησιν ἐνεργείᾳ - kata kinesin energeia)."

    (End Quote)

    According to this report, Epicurus mentions katastematic and kinetic (and mental and bodily) pleasures in at least four books, and the Epicureans Diogenes of Tarsus and Metrodorus each mention it in their books.

    I'm still not entirely convinced that the best translation of katastematic is "state *of rest*". I think stable pleasure would be good, but is it stable because it's reliable - or 100% available at all times to paraphrase Little Rocker. καταστημα is defined by LSJ as "condition, state, not necessarily permanent: 1. bodily or mental condition, “τὸ εὐσταθὲς σαρκὸς κ.” Epicur.Fr.68, Metrod.Fr.5, cf. Diog.Oen.29" (3 Epicurean sources cited)

    Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, Κκ , κατάσσυ^τος , κατάστημα

    [ U68 ] Plutarch, That Epicurus actually makes a pleasant life impossible, 4, p. 1089D: It is this, I believe, that has driven them, seeing for themselves the absurdities to which they were reduced, to take refuge in the "painlessness" and the "stable condition of the flesh," supposing that the pleasurable life is found in thinking of this state as about to occur in people or as being achieved; for the "stable and settled condition of the flesh," and the "trustworthy expectation" of this condition contain, they say, the highest and the most assured delight for men who are able to reflect. Now to begin with, observe their conduct here, how they keep decanting this "pleasure" or "painlessness" or "stable condition" of theirs back and forth, from body to mind and then once more from mind to body.

    Aulus Gellius, Attic Nights, IX.5.2: Epicurus makes pleasure the highest good but defines it as sarkos eustathes katastema, or "a well-balanced condition of the body."

    > Metrodorus, Fragment 5: "Metrodorus, in his book On the Source of Happiness in Ourselves being greater than that which arises from Objects, says: 'What else is the good of the soul but the sound state of the flesh, and the sure hope of its continuance?'" (Source: Metrodori Epicurei Fragmenta collegit scriptoris incerti Epicurei Commentarium moralem, subiecit Alfredus Koerte)

    > Diogenes of Oenoanda:

    Let us now [investigate] how life is to be made pleasant for us both in states (katastēmasi) and in actions (praxesin).**

    (εισαν τὰ φ̣ρόν[ιμα]. ἡμ[εῖς δὲ ζη]τ̣ῶ̣μεν ἤ̣δ̣η πῶς ὁ βίος ἡμεῖν ἡδὺς γένηται καὶ ἐν τοῖς κατασ̣τήμασι καὶ ἐν ταῖς πράξεσιν.)

    Let us first discuss states (περὶ δὲ τῶν καταστημάτων πρῶτον εἴπωμεν), keeping an eye on the point that, when the emotions which disturb the soul are removed, those which produce pleasure enter into it to take their place.

    Well, what are the disturbing emotions? [They are] fears —of the gods, of death, and of [pains]— and, besides [these], desires that [outrun] the limits fixed by nature. These are the roots of all evils, and, [unless] we cut them off, [a multitude] of evils will grow [upon] us.

    **in actions (praxesin) < πράξεσιν dative plural of πραξις "act, action, activity, deed, doing"

    Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, πρᾶξις

  • TauPhi
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    • July 1, 2023 at 4:29 AM
    • #25

    I'll approach katastematic/kinetic pleasure from slightly different perspective. This is something I was entertaining myself with on one of my midnight walks. One day I was reading something about dopamine and its function as a neurotransmitter and it occurred to me that pleasure might not be the highest good, in fact. Technically, pleasure may be just an emergent phenomenon caused by release of dopamine in animals' brains. Dopamine makes us want to pursue (or avoid) things. Without it, we wouldn't be even talking about pleasure and pain. We simply wouldn't know what these are.

    To illustrate the power of dopamine, imagine yourself in front of a tasty looking burger. Next to the burger there are two pills. Let's make them red and blue for dramatic, Matrix-like purposes. Blue pill contains a chemical that completely blocks dopamine release in the brain. Swallow the pill and you would be staring at the burger until you die of hunger. You would have no motivation to eat it. You would not know what pleasure is. The red pill is cocaine-like chemical. Swallow it and you would find yourself devouring the burger is a state of ecstasy due to dopamine release flood. That would be the most pleasant burger in your life.

    My point is, katastematic pleasure is a healthy, constant release of dopamine in our brains which allows us to feel pleasure anytime we're not in pain. This, to me, is the actual state of ataraxia. Enough dopamine to experience the pleasure of existence and to evoke the will to sustain that existence for as long as it's pleasurable.

    Kinetic pleasure is a temporary spike of dopamine that makes us pursue imminent but short-lasting pleasures. I also consider it the main source of variety in experiencing pleasures discussed in PD18.

  • Don
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    • July 1, 2023 at 6:41 AM
    • #26

    I think TauPhi is onto something here with this line of thinking. My suggestion would just be to expand beyond dopamine when we consider the parallels between ancient katastematic/kinetic categories and modern neuroscience, and I do believe there are parallels. Maybe not one to one correspondence since Epicurus had no access to the research we have, but I feel his observations and intuition were ahead of their time.

    Interesting articles/papers. The NLM ones are waaay into the weeds and I haven't read past the abstract, but sharing for possible future reference. The Psychology Today and other ones are a little more accessible.

    The Neurochemicals of Happiness
    Seven brain molecules that make you feel great.
    www.psychologytoday.com
    Happiness & Health: The Biological Factors- Systematic Review Article
    Happiness underlying factors are considerable from two dimensions: endogenic factors (biological, cognitive, personality and ethical sub-factors) and exogenic…
    www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
    Pleasure systems in the brain
    Pleasure is mediated by well-developed mesocorticolimbic circuitry, and serves adaptive functions. In affective disorders anhedonia (lack of pleasure) or…
    www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
    UConn Researcher: Dopamine Not About Pleasure (Anymore) - UConn Today
    Contrary to a long-held scientific idea, psychologist John Salamone says an increasing number of studies show that the neurotransmitter has to do not with…
    today.uconn.edu
    How Brain Chemicals Influence Mood | UPMC HealthBeat
    Learn more about common brain chemicals, or neurotransmitters, and how they affect your thinking and overall health.
    share.upmc.com
  • Godfrey
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    • July 1, 2023 at 1:40 PM
    • #27
    Quote from TauPhi

    it occurred to me that pleasure might not be the highest good, in fact. Technically, pleasure may be just an emergent phenomenon caused by release of dopamine in animals' brains.

    I agree that a basic understanding of neurochemistry can aid in the pursuit of pleasure and well-being. But pleasure remains the way that we experience our neurochemical functioning and so, I think, remains the highest good/the goal/the guide. Neurochemistry is the mechanism of pleasure but, to my way of thinking, doesn't supercede pleasure. For it to do so we would need equipment that would instantaneously monitor our levels of the various chemicals. The equipment that we have for that is our faculty of Feelings.

  • Don
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    • July 1, 2023 at 1:59 PM
    • #28
    Quote from Godfrey

    I agree that a basic understanding of neurochemistry can aid in the pursuit of pleasure and well-being.

    Agreed!

    Quote from Godfrey

    pleasure remains the way that we experience our neurochemical functioning

    Agreed!! And well put, Godfrey.

    Quote from Godfrey

    I think, [pleasure] remains the highest good/the goal/the guide. Neurochemistry is the mechanism of pleasure but, to my way of thinking, doesn't supercede pleasure. For it to do so we would need equipment that would instantaneously monitor our levels of the various chemicals. The equipment that we have for that is our faculty of Feelings.

    Again, well put. If I may add, our brains are what we have to "monitor our levels of the various chemicals." :) Our feelings and sensations (including interoception) are how we experience that monitoring. And as Dr. Lisa Feldman Barrett points out, that monitoring and prediction function is the main job of our brains... that whole reasoning thing comes along for the ride later on as I understand it.

  • Don
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    • July 1, 2023 at 3:10 PM
    • #29

    (I realize this thread has strayed waaaaay off the original topic :) but this is a good conversation, so I'll let Cassius decide if it needs to be branched off or not)

    In thinking about this a little more...

    We always have to remember not to confuse desires with feelings. I don't think we're doing that here, but just putting that notice up again.

    It also seems to me that ataraxia ((tranquility), aponia* (see footnote), chara, (joy) and euphrosyne (delight) could be described as *emotions* that is how we *experience* pleasure in our body and mind. Pleasure and pain are the two valents available to us to describe our affect with level of arousal the other axis. I go back to the circumplex model of affect:

    An external file that holds a picture, illustration, etc.<br>Object name is fig-1.jpg

    Euphrosyne and xhara would be positive (pleasant) valence with high arousal (in the Happy Quadrant); ataraxia and aponia would be high positive valence and low arousal (in the Content(ment) Quadrant).

    Maybe katastematic and kinetic were simply Epicurus way to describe the quadrants on the right (NOTE: Knowing fully well he didn't have a circumplex model of affect!! This is just a modern way of diagramming affect). Cyrenaics ONLY accepted the upper right quadrant as "Pleasure"; Epicurus accepted everything to the RIGHT of the vertical axis. I've stated this before (I think on one of the podcast threads, so sorry if this is duplicating what you've already read there.)

    I have no trouble accepting that some people, ancient and modern, would only use PLEASURE to describe active pleasures one engages in with their body. I'd still call those kinetic pleasures... a pleasurable feeling *caused* by a external circumstances in which one engages. To describe it another way, people can SEE you engaging in activities from which you derive kinetic pleasures. Katastematic pleasures are those engaged in INSIDE your head (or in your chest if we're using the "your mind is in your chest/abdomen" paradigm of Epicurus). People can't SEE you engaged in those activities although they can be very powerfully felt by you.

    Again, running the risk of thinking out loud but trying to add fuel to the fire for further conversation... or maybe that's fire to the minefield to paraphrase Little Rocker ^^ .

    *aponia - I don't see - and don't think it's interpreted correctly - aponia as "being free from pain" in the sense of just "not feeling any pain." The word is "a + ponia (ponos)". Ponos includes:

    πόνος (pónos)

    • work, especially hard work; toil
    • bodily exertion, exercise
    • work, task, business
    • the consequence of toil, distress, trouble, suffering
    • anything produced by work, a work

    It seems to me that aponia is to the body as ataraxia is to the mind. Ataraxia is a tranquil, well-functioning, calm mind. Aponia is the sense of your body working perfectly, the sense/feeling that athletes (And I wouldn't know this from first-hand experience :D ) get when they're in the flow and their bodies are just acting effortlessly. That's my sense of aponia.

  • Don
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    • July 1, 2023 at 4:06 PM
    • #30

    Okay, further thoughts...

    Epicurus likes his parallel constructions (ex., his "never too old... never too young..." sections in Menoikeus), so how would those (conveniently) four feelings of pleasure line up ... extrapolating from my thoughts above in post 128:

    "Feeling"Pleasure CategoryValenceArousal"Source"
    AtaraxiaKatastematicPositiveLowMental Source (Internal Stimuli); Not Observable
    AponiaKatastematicPositiveLowBodily Source (Internal Stimuli); Not Observable
    KharaKineticPositiveHighMental Source (External Stimuli); Observable
    EuphrosyneKineticPositiveHighBodily Source (Exterinal Stimuli); Observable

    What I'm proposing here is that Ataraxia is the parallel to Khara; Aponia is the parallel to Euphrosyne.

    Khara is "joy, delight" in being a spectator or member of audience. You experience pleasure from the experience. You can still be observed (it's a kinetic pleasure) engaging in the activity, but the pleasure is felt primarily as an internal feeling. It's still an external stimuli, but your "body" isn't as involved. LSJ definition includes "joy in or at a thing." Think watching a dancing or singing performance. The corresponding katatematic pleasure example is ataraxia.

    Euphrosyne is "mirth, merriment, esp. of a banquet, good cheer, festivity." Euphrosyne is the pleasure you feel when actually involved yourself - with your body - in an activity. The oorresponding katastematic pleasure example is aponia.

  • Cassius
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    • July 1, 2023 at 4:09 PM
    • #31
    Quote from Don

    (I realize this thread has strayed waaaaay off the original topic :) but this is a good conversation, so I'll let Cassius decide if it needs to be branched off or not)

    Do you have a suggestion on where it started branching and how to describe the topic? Are you thinking it's a modern psychology heading?

  • Don
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    • July 1, 2023 at 5:53 PM
    • #32
    Quote from Cassius
    Quote from Don

    (I realize this thread has strayed waaaaay off the original topic :) but this is a good conversation, so I'll let Cassius decide if it needs to be branched off or not)

    Do you have a suggestion on where it started branching and how to describe the topic? Are you thinking it's a modern psychology heading?

    Maybe back at post 100??

    It seems to me we're diving into katastematic and kinetic and modern neuroscience??

  • Godfrey
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    • July 1, 2023 at 5:54 PM
    • #33

    That's a great layout of the issues, Don ! A lot to digest. Your chart in post #129 seems to me to be the most useful place to start tiptoeing through the minefield.

    1) I totally agree that kinetic pleasure can be either mental or physical, and the same for katastematic pleasure.

    2) I'm not sure that degree of arousal is pertinent. It may be, but it seems to me that the difference between katastematic and kinetic is a factor of time rather than "intensity". For example, I can be hungry and get pleasure from relieving that hunger. But I can be a little bit hungry (low arousal, negative valence) or really hungry (high arousal, negative valence). What makes the pleasure from eating kinetic is that it changes my temporary state from hunger (pain) to pleasure (absence of pain = negative pleasure), possibly with the additional positive pleasure of tasting really good. But before long I'll be hungry again, either way. (BTW you can further say that relieving the hunger results from a natural and necessary desire, whereas tasting really good is related to natural and unnecessary desires. I think this is a separate issue from being kinetic or katastematic.) The katastematic pleasure of a correct worldview or of knowing that my needs are cared for for the foreseeable future could last years, not hours or minutes, and becomes a sort of "background" state of pleasure.

    3) I don't think that observability is relevant to either kinetic or katastematic pleasure. For instance, someone teaching a correct worldview is in a sense witnessing the source of their student's resultant katastematic pleasure. And the source of a kinetic pleasure may be either observable or not. Think about meditating: in one way, it's an activity that involves continual moving between pleasure and pain, both physical and mental. Sitting there quite still, your back could be getting sore or you may be experiencing a particularly painful thought. Then you let go and "poof", the pain is gone. Likewise for pleasure: you might notice (or think) "oh, my back doesn't hurt anymore, this feels great!" or "I'm so relaxed"; then "poof" something unwanted, distressing or otherwise painful comes up. This is kinetic, but not observable.

  • Don
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    • July 1, 2023 at 6:34 PM
    • #34

    Godfrey , I can always rely on you for insightful responses and thoughtful posts! Great appreciated! :)

    Let me think about a few of your points.

    Just for my own putting things in order...

    Quote from Godfrey

    the difference between katastematic and kinetic is a factor of time

    Hmmm.... I'm going to have to think about that. If I understand you correctly, you're saying katastematic pleasure has a longer "shelf life" whereas kinetic pleasures are of (relatively) shorter duration? To break down some of your examples:

    Quote from Godfrey (edited, with notes from Don)
    • I can be hungry (Don: pain or absence of pleasure)
    • and get pleasure from relieving that hunger (Don: I would characterize that as kinetic pleasure while eating; gaining pleasure from remembering the meal - from my perspective - would be katastematic)
    • I can be a little bit hungry (low arousal, negative valence)
      • or really hungry (high arousal, negative valence).
    • What makes the pleasure from eating kinetic is that it changes my temporary state from hunger (pain) to pleasure (absence of pain = negative pleasure) (Don: Negative pleasure?? I'd accept negation of or opposite of pleasure but not the term "negative pleasure." Or maybe I'm just reading too much into that.)
    • But before long I'll be hungry again, either way. (Don: Okay, fleeting/temporary pleasure is being characterized as kinetic, right? ... because it changes?)

    And then you discussed katastematic pleasure...

    Quote from Godfrey (with notes from Don)

    The katastematic pleasure of:

    • a correct worldview
    • or of knowing that my needs are cared for for the foreseeable future...
      • could last years, not hours or minutes, and becomes a sort of "background" state of pleasure.

    Okay, so you are including the long-term ("background") characteristic as (one) defining feature of katastematic pleasure. With short-term pleasure being a feature of kinetic pleasure... and its "kinetic" aspect is this exact fleeting feature it has?

    Quote from Godfrey

    I don't think that observability is relevant to either kinetic or katastematic pleasure.

    So, it doesn't matter - from your perspective - what kind of activity is involved in causing the pleasure. I'll have to dig into that. Not saying I disagree or agree... Have to consider. Thank You for some food for thought!!!

  • Cassius
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    • July 1, 2023 at 7:02 PM
    • #35
    Quote from Don responding to Godfrey

    If I understand you correctly, you're saying katastematic pleasure has a longer "shelf life" whereas kinetic pleasures are of (relatively) shorter duration?

    Someone will ask: If duration is the difference between katastematic and kinetic, what is the exact dividing line between the two and how is that line philosophically established? Would the time frame be a second, minute, hour, day, or what?

  • Don
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    • July 1, 2023 at 8:36 PM
    • #36
    Quote from Cassius
    Quote from Don responding to Godfrey

    If I understand you correctly, you're saying katastematic pleasure has a longer "shelf life" whereas kinetic pleasures are of (relatively) shorter duration?

    Someone will ask: If duration is the difference between katastematic and kinetic, what is the exact dividing line between the two and how is that line philosophically established? Would the time frame be a second, minute, hour, day, or what?

    That's exactly the reason I'm not ready to embrace that suggestion just yet.

  • Godfrey
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    • July 1, 2023 at 11:49 PM
    • #37
    Quote from Cassius

    Someone will ask: If duration is the difference between katastematic and kinetic, what is the exact dividing line between the two and how is that line philosophically established? Would the time frame be a second, minute, hour, day, or what?

    Actually, I sort of asked that in post #19 ;) After rereading that post I'm thinking that kinetic is of short duration and katastematic is of long duration, and there's a large gap between the two. There's no precise point that differentiates between the two. But it's a good question and I don't know if there's anything resembling a precise answer. (If we were Supreme Court justices we could say we know it when we see it, but that's too sloppy for earnest philosophical discussion. )

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    • July 2, 2023 at 1:47 AM
    • #38

    Upon further percolating, what happens if we remove duration from the definitions of kinetic and katastematic pleasures? Would it be that kinetic pleasure is a condition of a change of state and katastematic pleasure is a condition of being in a state? This actually seems like the simplest and most accurate definition. It might also be the most useful, if it's combined with the categories of desires and we want to concentrate on experiencing pleasure and not on spending our time analyzing it.

    Using motion or the lack thereof as the defining characteristic of kinetic or katastematic has, I think, been refuted on the grounds that all atoms are in motion no matter what type of pleasure you are experiencing, and therefore there is only kinetic pleasure. Is there anything in the Greek (or Latin) that would support the idea that Epicurus was referring to change, not motion, if/when he used the terms kinetic and katastematic?

  • TauPhi
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    • July 2, 2023 at 7:58 AM
    • #39

    Godfrey Thanks for your post #27. I loved it and it's hard not to agree with you but I'd like to comment on this sentence:

    Quote from Godfrey

    Neurochemistry is the mechanism of pleasure but, to my way of thinking, doesn't supercede pleasure.

    When we talk about neurochemistry, we venture into the world of molecules and atoms. To me, atoms will always have precedence over everything. This is how I understand objective way of looking at things. Trying to understand objective truth about our existence gives us a chance for subjective, pleasant life as humans because objective knowledge removes subjective fears and destroys subjective superstitions. When I was talking about dopamine I didn't mean to suggest that it replaces pleasure. By saying that pleasure might not be the highest good I was coming from objective perspective. Objectively atoms and void are the highest good as they are building blocks of everything else.

    That said, I'm not sitting now in front of the screen thinking 'a combination of carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen and oxygen was just released by my neurons therefore I am capable of doing x and y'. I'm not a Spock. I'm purely human and from my subjective, human perspective I do find pleasure the ultimate motivator. I also fully realise that philosophy is a discipline invented by humans and is intended to be practiced from human perspective. I'm perfectly capable of thinking, talking and experiencing pleasure, feelings, friendship and everything else human but I try to remind myself that I live in the universe that is not created for me and all my subjective experiences most likely have objective truth behind them.

  • Don
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    • July 2, 2023 at 12:43 PM
    • #40
    Quote from Godfrey

    Upon further percolating

    ^^ I like that! From now on, I will no longer cogitate or "meditate on these things," I'm going to "percolate on these things." :thumbup:

    Quote from Godfrey

    Would it be that kinetic pleasure is a condition of a change of state and katastematic pleasure is a condition of being in a state? This actually seems like the simplest and most accurate definition.

    Yes, I agree with the following addenda: I think this line gets to the heart of Epicurus's recognizing these two categories of pleasure... and his and others saying we can have more confidence in the katastematic pleaasure. There's not only the "state" of feeling katastematic it is also the "stability" of katastematic pleasure. We can have confidence in the availability of katastematic pleasure because it is a "stable condition" of the mind or a "background or foundational" condition of the mind. This, to me, is also connected to the characteristic of the sage in that "once the sage has become wise, they will no longer fall back into ignorance." Once incorrect ideas are rooted out, they can't grow back. This is where ataraxia comes from: The mind being in a stable condition of not being worried about death, the gods, etc. Once the incorrect views are rooted out, we achieve a stable tranquil condition of the mind that is no longer troubled by these views.

    I don't think the "motion of the atoms" has anything to with Epicurus's categorization of pleasure into katastematic or kinetic. As Godfrey points out, the atoms are moving all the time. I don't see any way to have the atomic motions be concerned with the kinetic/katastematic distinction.

    Quote from Godfrey

    Is there anything in the Greek that would support the idea that Epicurus was referring to change, not motion, if/when he used the terms kinetic and katastematic?

    I'll use that as a jumping off point to look at the Greek and Latin (I rarely need much provocation to return to dictionaries and etymologies ^^ ) κατάστημα literally means "condition, state, not necessarily permanent: bodily or mental condition, “τὸ εὐσταθὲς σαρκὸς κ.” Epicur.Fr.68, Metrod.Fr.5, cf. Diog.Oen.29" Check out the post above where I shared those references to Epicurus, Metrodorus, and Diogenes Oenoanda.

    I found this interesting article online: https://cup.columbia.edu/wp-content/upl…-Appendix-6.pdf

    and this one: https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/14932622.pdf

    There' also Hiram's article: https://societyofepicurus.com/on-the-standar…tatic-pleasure/

    I admit I have not read these yet but was intrigued by the abstracts. I'll try to read them soon-ish but if anyone beats me to it, please share thoughts!

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