Does the philosophy change you?

    I was talking with Cassius about some of my readings in religion. I have a fascination with religious philosophies, in particular the "philosophical proofs" of the existence of God. There are several and when I've read them I've found them compelling. (Aristotle's prime mover for example). I know some here will think that is silly.


    The difficulty I had is that even if I accept the arguments and decide "yes, God exists", my experience of being is unchanged. I am still just me living life and motivated to make it as pleasant as possible.


    So I thought I recalled a quote from Epicurus that addressed this. Something about one's experience of life is not being improved by a philosophy, rendering it useless.


    Thoughts? I don't want to debate Aristotle, religion, God, etc. That was merely the context for my question. Does the philosophy change you? Or perhaps it is better posed as "does the philosophy change your experience of being"?

    Quote from EricR

    "does the philosophy change your experience of being"?

    If by "experience of being" you mean "how one experiences the world", the answer has to be "yes." One's "experience of being" is inextricably linked to what one pays attention to. By focusing on - seeking out - pleasure in both little and big ways, one's experience of the world is changed.

    Interesting. I cannot say for sure that I have the same experience.


    So did you experience the world differently prior to reading Epicurean ideas?

    Quote from Don

    I would say my decision making process has definitely changed.

    And I can see all sorts of other aspects that could change as well. Once you are really confident that you don't have to face eternal punishment in hell for violating the dominant orthodoxies, I can see that changing a person pretty profoundly.


    Especially the implications of a view like this:


    [125] For there is nothing terrible in life for the man who has truly comprehended that there is nothing terrible in not living.

    Quote from EricR

    So I thought I recalled a quote from Epicurus that addressed this. Something about one's experience of life is not being improved by a philosophy, rendering it useless.

    Were you perhaps thinking of this: 'Vain is the word of a philosopher by which no human suffering is cured. For just as medicine is of no use if it fails to banish the diseases of the body, so philosophy is of no use if it fails to banish the sufferings of the mind' (Usener fr. 222)


    I was admittedly somewhat surprised to discover that I was in fact changed by studying Epicurus as a way of living rather than an academic exercise. Sometimes it was just that I finally discovered a justification for views I already had pre-reflectively (e.g., that greed leads to unhappiness). Sometimes it was that I actually altered how I interacted with others (privileging activities that would provide me with memories over unmemorable activities, at least when I had a choice). And I made peace with the fact that I thought life should be pleasant, which was actually a difficult transition because of my upbringing. Those are only a few examples of changes in my outlook and behavior, but they are perhaps the most notable ones.

    It would be fair to say that I have an ascetic streak--for part of my twenties I was a car-free vegetarian who commuted by bicycle and drank more tea than anything else, after much reading in Thoreau, Edward Abbey, Frank Herbert and Buddhism. Some of this I found to be impractical in a small Midwestern city. The vegetarianism I found to be a strain on interpersonal relationships. It made dining with others very troublesome.


    The thing is I couldn't let philosophy in general go even if I wanted to. I think for some people the questions arise unbidden. When Salman Rushdie went into protection after the fatwa, Susan Sontag told him "Salman! It’s like being in love! I think of you night and day: all the time!" It's like that with philosophy.


    Death, life beyond the grave, ethics, morality, the nature of human life; even without Epicurus I should spend much time turning these things over in my mind.

    Quote from Little Rocker

    Usener fr. 221)

    Since we're getting down the thread here, here's a link to the can of worms that got opened on that fragment ^^ :

    Thread
    Porphyry - Letter to Marcella -"Vain Is the Word of the Philosopher..."
    I was talking to @EricR this morning and trying to remember the source of this quote. In tracking it down it seems to come from Porphyry's letter to Marcella -- but do we really know this is attributable to Epicurus? Usener seems to think so, but why? Anyone recall?

    U221

    Porphyry, Letter to Marcella, 31, [p. 209, 23 Nauck]: Vain is the word of a philosopher which does not heal any suffering of man. For just as there is no profit in medicine if it does not expel the diseases of the body, so…
    Cassius

    I almost forgot to mention, EricR , that we occasionally have chats with Dr. Kevin Guilfoy who co-edited "The Cambridge Companion to Peter Abelard", so if medieval logic interests you that would be a good book to lay your hands on. Kevin is a great guy and could probably be convinced to answer any questions you might have on that subject.


    The Cambridge Companion to Abelard (Cambridge Companions to Philosophy)
    Although best known for his views about universals and his dramatic love affair with Heloise, Peter Abelard (1079-1142) also made important contributions in…
    www.amazon.com

    Letting go of the supernatural may have caused the biggest change in me. I now spend my time learning how best to enjoy this life, rather than searching for something that (in all likelihood) doesn't exist.

    I was raised in a milieu of Christian/Stoical/Kantian “virtue moralism” that I liken to a Pavlovian programming that leaves an array of reactive triggers in your subconscious – that can grab you decades later (at least for me). All of that was in continual struggle with my inherent tendency toward hedonism (as opposed, here, to asceticism); and an unchecked, rebellious hedonism led to borderline addictive tendencies.


    Unfortunately, all of the philosophical/spiritual avenues that I explored and studied seemed arrayed on the side of that latent moralistic programming. And so, life remained a struggle most days, well beyond my midlife years – even with help from friends and a wise therapist. (I am nothing if not stubborn! X( ;( )


    Epicurus has finally given me some ease in all that – with a rational therapy that goes beyond mere intellectual philosophy (in the modern academic sense) and offers the practical means for a healthier hedonism (without the old guilt). 1/


    I still struggle: those subconscious triggers still rear their hooded heads. But the old reactions are short-lived. Life is easier, serenity is more readily available on a daily basis.


    ++++++++++++++


    1/: I am reminded, in my random brain, of some lines by Rumi:


    “As always, we wake anxious and afraid.

    “Don’t go into the library!

    “Take down your lute and play …”

    Quote from Pacatus

    I was raised in a milieu of Christian/Stoical/Kantian “virtue moralism” that I liken to a Pavlovian programming that leaves an array of reactive triggers in your subconscious – that can grab you decades later (at least for me).

    Yeah, in my experience it never goes away....it just gets muffled.

    Quote from Little Rocker
    Quote from Pacatus

    I was raised in a milieu of Christian/Stoical/Kantian “virtue moralism” that I liken to a Pavlovian programming that leaves an array of reactive triggers in your subconscious – that can grab you decades later (at least for me).

    Yeah, in my experience it never goes away....it just gets muffled.

    Yep same for me, at times it becomes overwhelming.

    Seems appropriate on the topic that it's a constant struggle -


    Lucretius 6 / 43 (Munro)


    [I have willed at the same time] to explain all the other things which mortals observe to go on upon earth and in heaven, when often they are in anxious suspense of mind, and which abase their souls with fear of the gods and weigh and press them down to earth, because ignorance of the causes constrains them to submit things to the empire of the gods and to make over to them the kingdom. For they who have been rightly taught that the gods lead a life without care, if nevertheless they wonder on what plan all things can be carried on, above all in regard to those things which are seen overhead in the ethereal borders, are borne back again into their old religious scruples and take unto themselves hard taskmasters, whom they poor wretches believe to be almighty, not knowing what can, what cannot be, in short on what principle each thing has its powers defined, its deep set boundary mark; and therefore they are led all the farther astray by blind reason.


    [68] Now unless you drive from your mind with loathing all these things, and banish far from you all belief in things degrading to the gods and inconsistent with their peace, then often will the holy deities of the gods, having their majesty lessened by you, do you hurt; not that the supreme power of the gods can be so outraged that in their wrath they shall resolve to exact sharp vengeance, but because you will fancy to yourself that they, though they enjoy quiet and calm peace, do roll great billows of wrath; nor will you approach the sanctuaries of the gods with a calm breast, nor will you be able with tranquil peace of mind to take in those idols which are carried from their holy body into the minds of men as heralds of their divine form. And what kind of life follows after this, may be conceived.

    You know this topic - the feeling of getting overwhelmed and falling back into "the norm" is a problem that deserves lots of attention.


    Seems pretty clear that at the very least Epicurus was advising:


    - "getting back to nature" or "studying nature" as a way to build confidence,


    PD12. A man cannot dispel his fear about the most important matters if he does not know what is the nature of the universe, but suspects the truth of some mythical story. So that, without natural science, it is not possible to attain our pleasures unalloyed.


    But also:


    - surrounding yourself with like-minded friends who can help talk through and in other ways assist in bad times.


    Lots of references to that:


    PD27. Of all the things which wisdom acquires to produce the blessedness of the complete life, far the greatest is the possession of friendship.

    PD28. The same knowledge that makes one confident that nothing dreadful is eternal or long-lasting also recognizes, in the face of these limited evils, the security afforded by friendship.



    Seems as true today as ever that while we can do a lot "on our own" in terms of studying nature, in the end living the best life possible is a "team sport" that requires constant reinforcement both in ourselves and through friends.


    Hopefully we can help a little with both here with this forum.

    Don't we have a thread somewhere about what an Epicurean might do when they feel overwhelmed or depressed?


    If we don't then we are about to, because we need an accessible list of practical advice.

    OK yes we basically have a full subforum devoted to this, but might be good to add another specific thread:


    Dealing With Anxiety And Depression


    Here is a new specific thread which provides a keyword for the "overwhelmed" feeling, which probably isn't strictly the same as "anxiety" or "depression." This is the kind of thing we really need an "article" on :


    Thread
    How Does An Epicurean Feeling Overwhelmed Or Depressed Overcome That Feeling?
    [EDIT FROM CASSIUS: I am copying this post into a new thread to address the topic now listed as the thread title: "How Does An Epicurean Feeling Overwhelmed Or Depressed Overcome That Feeling?" The first three posts are from another thread entitled "Does the Philosophy Change You?" but these posts set up the topic very nicely. We're not talking here about clinical depression or generalized anxiety but the normal ups and downs of everyday life, when the obstacles (real and not imagined) seem…
    Cassius


    So let's continue "Does the Philosophy Change You?" - which is a very good question - here in this existing thread. If anyone wants to pursue the "how to overcome feeling overwhelmed" aspect please post it at this link.