Imagery On The Interplay Between "Pursue Pleasure" and 'Avoid Pain"

That is an interesting analogy, and if it was a choice between certain death and less likely death but still a highly risky maneuver, then you gotta choose.

But this doesn't show how we take into account that the ability to maximize pleasure requires us to stay alive. There is no pleasure when you are dead. And that means that Epicureans are not going to be daredevils like Evel Knievel. So the sensory pleasure of flying through the air and the "vain" desire to be able to say you successfully jumped a wide ravine will be set aside, and we would choose to pursue wiser pleasures.

Quote from Cassius

Not all of us are going to rank the pleasures of risk and danger as highly as Knievel did, but since there is no absolute standard of how you *should* rank your pleasures, I would say Epicurus would have no issue with Knievel's choices, at least on an abstract level.

I can't agree with you here, because:

PD16: "Chance steals only a bit into the life of a wise person: for throughout the complete span of his life the greatest and most important matters have been, are, and will be directed by the power of reason."

I feel certain that Epicurus would not approve of Knievel's choices and actions, because he was clearly leaving it up to chance, when he said he knew that several of his jumps were questionable but he went ahead and did it anyway. And he had a hard time getting insurance. He was badly injured with broken bones countless times (and I would guess he probably was addicted to pain medication, though didn't read the full Wikipedia article). He was definitely into it for the fame and the money.

Epicurus was not above evaluating other's choices and offering what one ought not do. He explicitly said "Therefore, whenever we say repeatedly that 'pleasure is the τέλος,' we do not say the pleasure of those who are prodigal like those who are ignorant, those who don't agree with us, or those who believe wrongly; but we mean that which neither pains the body nor troubles the mind. For it is not an endless string of drinking parties and festivals, and not taking advantage of slaves and women, nor does an extravagant table of fish and other things bring forth a sweet life but self-controlled reasoning and examining the cause of every choice and rejection and driving out the greatest number of opinions that take hold of the mind and bring confusion and trouble."

The whole idea of Epicurean teachers using frank speech to correct the actions of students and to guide them in a better direction is well documented.

Quote from Cassius

there is no magic formula by which we can say that one persons view of pleasure is absolutely preferable over another person's view of pleasure. We're all entitled to our own choices, and we reap the rewards or pay the price accordingly.

While there's no "magic formula" and each person is responsible for the consequences of their choices, that doesn't imply there aren't better courses of actions or more preferable choices to make.

Epicurus could say each person chooses their own pleasure, but he was not above saying that this or that choice would not end well and guiding someone to make a "better" choice.

Quote from Cassius

No matter how much we think that the choice for the other person is "better," it's ultimately up to them what they choose to do.

Definitely. But that doesn't preclude the teacher from saying, "Told ya. Now, let's review what happened and how to avoid those consequences in the future."

Quote from Cassius

we never set "avoiding pain" as the primary overriding purpose of life.

For the record, I agree.

Quote from Cassius

But even as we debate this practical angle, the ultimate philosophical point remains and I think we all agree on it -- that in the end life is a balance between pursuing pleasure and avoiding pain, but while we sometimes choose pain in order to pursue pleasure, we never set "avoiding pain" as the primary overriding purpose of life.

Yes, I agree with this. And it is all much more complex than this - and in certain situations we really do need to be sensitive to the balance of pain and pleasure that we feel inside our bodies.

I was pondering today, that there is a strange paradox in the pursuit of pleasure -- it is as if nature gives us a reward to reinforce certain behaviors.

For example: When we are hungry there is pain present from the hunger. The stomach growls and there is a slight feeling of stomach acid in the empty stomach prompting us to eat to relieve the discomfort. As we eat, there is enjoyment of the taste and smell of the food to reinforce the behavior of eating. When we get full, there is the sensation of fullness which signals that it is time to stop eating, and depending on the level of fullness can cause varying levels of discomfort. Of course we can eat at times when we are no longer hungry and enjoy the variation of the experience of taste and smell. But eating more than necessary can lead to a sluggish feeling (not to mention weight gain). When food becomes a source of emotional comfort, we are also potentially eating too many calories (and we may be taking the easy way out of a situation instead of doing the harder work of finding ways to get emotional support or activities which relieve the pain of boredom).

If we know how (or learn) to stop eating when we are at the right level of fullness, then that in itself can bring a kind of pleasure, since we will have relieved the hunger and also have good energy (and not feel sluggish).

So what I am saying is that there is a complex mix of pleasure and pain - removing pain and adding pleasure. And there may be other areas in life that have this interplay.

I mainly see it as a question of emphasis--with the caveat being that what we emphasize in life colors our perception of what life amounts to while we live it.

Quote from Cassius

I am sure that others ( Eikadistes ? ) have better ideas for illustrating this, but it seems to me that there can never be too many ways of arguing and showing that the undisturbed pursuit of pleasure is ultimately why we seek to avoid pain, not the other way around.

I like anything to do with Star Trek.

Joshua 's video and Cassius 's "glass full/empty" metaphor are spot on. This is something I can never wrap my brain around. Why insist it's either/or?? By definition, if one side of the seesaw goes down, the other side goes up. By pursuing pleasure, we are, by definition, avoiding pain. As we reduce pain, we increase pleasure. "The feelings - pleasure and pain - are two." It's all a matter of focus or perspective, and sometimes one focus is helpful. Other times, the other focus is helpful.

As I was thinking further, I found some articles which you can read in this post:

Post

Hedonic Motivation - Seeking pleasure/reward and avoiding pain/punishment

This Wikipedia article: Hedonic Motivation is interesting:

[…]

And a Frontiers article: Truth, control, and value motivations: the “what,” “how,” and “why” of approach and avoidance (which I have not yet finished reading but wanted to include):

[…]

Kalosyni

March 29, 2023 at 9:46 AM

And thinking further that we as Epicureans are choosing to put a greater emphasis on seeking rewards and pleasure rather than on fearing punishment or pain. So while it is natural to be motivated by both pursuing pleasure and avoiding pain, it can actually be a sign of poor mental health if one is only focused on avoiding pain.

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The latest research from the Bo Li Lab suggests that an imbalance between the push-pull of GABAergic and glutamatergic VP neurons skews "positive vs. negative motivation and may explain behaviors associated with psychiatric disorders like depression or anxiety."

People suffering from major depressive disorder (MDD) are often unmotivated to seek out things that once gave them pleasure. Those of us who are prone to generalized anxiety disorder (GAD) often go to extreme lengths to avoid situations that seem threatening.

Source

Perhaps one day there will be something called "pleasure therapy".

Hoping that all of what we are posting in this thread may give some food for thought and inspiration for Eikadistes to create more fun memes, as he always comes up with such imaginative ones.

I just want to add that nagging anxiety over “choosing correctly” is itself a detraction from hedone and ataraxia (and I tend to react negatively that way – with a kind of emotional clutch – every time I hear the phrase “hedonic (or Epicurean) calculus” or the like; that’s just me personally, from my own personal history – and I never enjoyed math 😉). But the answer to that cannot be some cookie-cutter rote set of rules – as it becomes for some religionists, for example. (And I think Cassius emphasizes that point). I am also reminded here of Kalosyni’s felicitous phrase: “tools, not rules.”

I am also reminded of a slogan popular in 12-Step rooms: “Easy does it.” Depending on how you inflect that, it can be taken to mean “take it easy” – or “easy [really] does do it,” as opposed to stress-based “sturm und drang.” And some people really seem committed (even addicted) to that kind of stress, and constantly worrying over whether they (or someone else) will “get it wrong.”

Pleasure and pain are experiential: therapy (philosophy) can help guide us out of our ruts – but we make the choices however we make them. And we live with the experiential results (some of which may not have been well-anticipated). And, hopefully, we keep learning as we go. And, for me, ataraxia involves adopting an underlying serenity about all that – even in the face of uncertainty.

And so, when I feel that reactive emotional clutch, I tell myself: “Easy does it.” 😊 And, for me, that is part of (the attraction of) the Epicurean way – as opposed to say, the Stoics.

Quote from Pacatus

(and I tend to react negatively that way – with a kind of emotional clutch – every time I hear the phrase “hedonic (or Epicurean) calculus” or the like; that’s just me personally,

Amen to that! It's not just you, Pacatus .