Imagery On The Interplay Between "Pursue Pleasure" and 'Avoid Pain"

"Hedonic calculus" does seem to be essentially an outdated, Benthamite Utilitarianism term, originally associated with literally counting up the dolors and hedons... which is in reality impossible, from my perspective. There is no absolute quantification of pleasure points or pain values. Choice and rejection is an art, not a science.

Maybe it *would* be better to retire that phrase. "Calculus" implies some kind of single answer to the calculation.

"Choice and rejection" is not a math problem. It's a personal decision, albeit one that can -- should -- be informed by study and/or talking with a friend, guide, or other trusted person.

Felicific calculus - Wikipedia

Here's an interesting Humanist article from 2015 by Hiram Crespo that quotes Cassius, Onfray, and others:

Whose Pleasure? Whose Pain? Applying the Hedonic Calculus to Public Policy - TheHumanist.com

“We must, therefore, pursue the things that make for happiness, seeing that when happiness is present, we have everything; but when it is absent, we do…

thehumanist.com

συμμέτρησις is the word I prefer to use in the place of "hedonic calculus."

Quote from Don

There is no absolute quantification of pleasure points or pain values. Choice and rejection is an art, not a science.

Maybe it *would* be better to retire that phrase. "Calculus" implies some kind of single answer to the calculation.

"Choice and rejection" is not a math problem. It's a personal decision

I like the phrase "choices and avoidances"...and even if it is a long phrase, it is very clear what is being talked about.

Quote from Cassius

Quote from Nate

Symmetresis" is the word I prefer to use in the place of "hedonic calculus."

That post cries out for explanation, Nate!

I Googled that word, and see it on several site's index listings, but when I click on those pages cannot find a direct translation or reference as to where that word originates, so I am very curious Eikadistes

Quote from Cassius

Quote from Nate

Symmetresis" is the word I prefer to use in the place of "hedonic calculus."

That post cries out for explanation, Nate!

ΣYMMETPHΣIΣ – συμμέτρησις – symmétrēsis – Epicurus uses the word as συμμετρήσει (symmetrēsei) when describing “measuring things side by side and looking at both the advantages and disadvantages” (Ep. Men.)

In Epicurus’ Epistle To Herodotus, he uses several inflections of the word to refer to the process of arriving at correct judgments about sensation: σύμμετρον (47, 50), σύμμετροι (54), συμμετρότερον; and then several more times in his Epistle To Pythocles: (91), συμμετρίας (107), συμμέτρως (110), συμμέτρως (111), συμμετρήσει (130).

Great call, Nate!! I don't know how that passed me by!

[130] So, all pleasure, through its nature, belongs to us as a good; however, not all are elected; and just as all pains are entirely evil by their nature, so not all are always to be shunned.It is proper when judging these things to consider what is advantageous and what is not advantageous for you; in other words, what the consequences will be. We consult the consequences of our actions; because, on the one hand, pleasure over time can lead to pain; and on the other hand, pain can lead to pleasure.

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, Σ ς, , συμμ<ε>ικτέον , συμμέτρ-ησις

"Measuring" brings to mind the "measuring stick" (Canon). Is that more than coincidence? Is there a relation in the Greek, or is it just a quirk of the English?

It does seem to me that the faculties of the Canon are quite useful in judgments of the type being discussed.

Quote from Godfrey

"Measuring" brings to mind the "measuring stick" (Canon). Is that more than coincidence? Is there a relation in the Greek, or is it just a quirk of the English?

It does seem to me that the faculties of the Canon are quite useful in judgments of the type being discussed.

On thinking further, back in ancient Greece divination was common (and I need to do more research to find out more about how common it was). So having a method of making good choices and avoidances would have been of utmost importance in order to counter any urges for using superstitious divination.

Quote from Godfrey

"Measuring" brings to mind the "measuring stick" (Canon). Is that more than coincidence? Is there a relation in the Greek, or is it just a quirk of the English?

I can see where you're coming from; but, unfortunately, it's just a quirk of English. The canon is κανών kanōn. Symmetrēsis does have connections to English meter.

Quote from Cassius

So what are the literal definitions of that word. I can't imagine Don will be satisfied unless we have three or four synonymous usages!

Ok I see the dictionary version....

Seems I remember something similar in the Torquatus discussion about analogies and extensions perhaps.

There's also the verb:

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, Σ ς, , συμμ<ε>ικτέον , συμμετρ-έω

Consider the συμ- sym- similar to the sym- in sympathy "together with (feeling "pathy")"

-metreō "measure"

So... Measuring one thing together with another, weighing against each other, judging two things together, etc.