Imagery On The Interplay Between "Pursue Pleasure" and 'Avoid Pain"

We are now requiring that new registrants confirm their request for an account by email.  Once you complete the "Sign Up" process to set up your user name and password, please send an email to the New Accounts Administator to obtain new account approval.

Regularly Checking In On A Small Screen Device? Bookmark THIS page!

    I am sympathetic too that neither word is one I like to use - Hedonism is too foreign-sounding to me, and "calculus" is especially a problem - it rings of just the kind of logic or mathematics that Epicurus warned against. It also implies a Benthamite-sounding view that pleasure and pain are easily measured and quantified and can be evaluated by logical units.

    I know not everyone agrees, but to me "Hedonic calculus" is a label that rings of just the same kind of stoic-perspective reinterpretation of Epicurus that can be such a misleading problem. I use it sometimes in certain settings but I don't think it is the best way to approach non specialists.

    "Hedonic calculus" does seem to be essentially an outdated, Benthamite Utilitarianism term, originally associated with literally counting up the dolors and hedons... which is in reality impossible, from my perspective. There is no absolute quantification of pleasure points or pain values. Choice and rejection is an art, not a science.

    Maybe it *would* be better to retire that phrase. "Calculus" implies some kind of single answer to the calculation.

    "Choice and rejection" is not a math problem. It's a personal decision, albeit one that can -- should -- be informed by study and/or talking with a friend, guide, or other trusted person.

    Felicific calculus - Wikipedia

    Here's an interesting Humanist article from 2015 by Hiram Crespo that quotes Cassius, Onfray, and others:

    Whose Pleasure? Whose Pain? Applying the Hedonic Calculus to Public Policy - TheHumanist.com
    “We must, therefore, pursue the things that make for happiness, seeing that when happiness is present, we have everything; but when it is absent, we do…
    thehumanist.com
    Quote from Don

    There is no absolute quantification of pleasure points or pain values. Choice and rejection is an art, not a science.

    Maybe it *would* be better to retire that phrase. "Calculus" implies some kind of single answer to the calculation.

    "Choice and rejection" is not a math problem. It's a personal decision

    I like the phrase "choices and avoidances"...and even if it is a long phrase, it is very clear what is being talked about.

    Quote from Cassius
    Quote from Nate

    Symmetresis" is the word I prefer to use in the place of "hedonic calculus."

    That post cries out for explanation, Nate! ;)

    I Googled that word, and see it on several site's index listings, but when I click on those pages cannot find a direct translation or reference as to where that word originates, so I am very curious Eikadistes :)

    Quote from Cassius
    Quote from Nate

    Symmetresis" is the word I prefer to use in the place of "hedonic calculus."

    That post cries out for explanation, Nate! ;)

    ΣYMMETPHΣIΣ – συμμέτρησις – symmétrēsis – Epicurus uses the word as συμμετρήσει (symmetrēsei) when describing “measuring things side by side and looking at both the advantages and disadvantages” (Ep. Men.)

    In Epicurus’ Epistle To Herodotus, he uses several inflections of the word to refer to the process of arriving at correct judgments about sensation: σύμμετρον (47, 50), σύμμετροι (54), συμμετρότερον; and then several more times in his Epistle To Pythocles: (91), συμμετρίας (107), συμμέτρως (110), συμμέτρως (111), συμμετρήσει (130).

    Edited once, last by Eikadistes (March 30, 2023 at 12:49 PM).

    Great call, Nate!! I don't know how that passed me by!

    [130] So, all pleasure, through its nature, belongs to us as a good; however, not all are elected; and just as all pains are entirely evil by their nature, so not all are always to be shunned.It is proper when judging these things to consider what is advantageous and what is not advantageous for you; in other words, what the consequences will be. We consult the consequences of our actions; because, on the one hand, pleasure over time can lead to pain; and on the other hand, pain can lead to pleasure.

    Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, Σ ς, , συμμ<ε>ικτέον , συμμέτρ-ησις

    So what are the literal definitions of that word. I can't imagine Don will be satisfied unless we have three or four synonymous usages!

    Ok I see the dictionary version....

    Seems I remember something similar in the Torquatus discussion about analogies and extensions perhaps.

    I believe I was thinking about these words from Diogenes Laertius, which had me thinking in terms of an emphasis on judging things by comparison with other things that are none, in contrast perhaps to judging things against abstract definitions:

    Quote

    For all thoughts have their origin in sensations by means of coincidence and analogy and similarity and combination, reasoning too contributing something. And the visions of the insane and those in dreams are true, for they cause movement, and that which does not exist cannot cause movement.

    "Measuring" brings to mind the "measuring stick" (Canon). Is that more than coincidence? Is there a relation in the Greek, or is it just a quirk of the English?

    It does seem to me that the faculties of the Canon are quite useful in judgments of the type being discussed.

    Quote from Godfrey

    "Measuring" brings to mind the "measuring stick" (Canon). Is that more than coincidence? Is there a relation in the Greek, or is it just a quirk of the English?


    It does seem to me that the faculties of the Canon are quite useful in judgments of the type being discussed.

    On thinking further, back in ancient Greece divination was common (and I need to do more research to find out more about how common it was). So having a method of making good choices and avoidances would have been of utmost importance in order to counter any urges for using superstitious divination.

    Quote from Godfrey

    "Measuring" brings to mind the "measuring stick" (Canon). Is that more than coincidence? Is there a relation in the Greek, or is it just a quirk of the English?

    I can see where you're coming from; but, unfortunately, it's just a quirk of English. The canon is κανών kanōn. Symmetrēsis does have connections to English meter.

    Quote from Cassius

    So what are the literal definitions of that word. I can't imagine Don will be satisfied unless we have three or four synonymous usages!

    Ok I see the dictionary version....

    Seems I remember something similar in the Torquatus discussion about analogies and extensions perhaps.

    There's also the verb:

    Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, Σ ς, , συμμ<ε>ικτέον , συμμετρ-έω

    Consider the συμ- sym- similar to the sym- in sympathy "together with (feeling "pathy")"

    -metreō "measure"

    So... Measuring one thing together with another, weighing against each other, judging two things together, etc.

Unread Threads

    1. Title
    2. Replies
    3. Last Reply

    2. Immutability of Epicurean school in ancient times 11

      • TauPhi
      • July 29, 2025 at 2:14 PM
    3. Replies
      11
      Views
      425
      11

    4. Eikadistes

      July 29, 2025 at 2:14 PM

    2. Recorded Statements of Metrodorus 11

      • Cassius
      • July 28, 2025 at 7:23 PM
    3. Replies
      11
      Views
      403
      11

    4. Cassius

      July 28, 2025 at 7:23 PM

    2. Philodemus' "On Anger" - General - Texts and Resources 20

      • Cassius
      • July 8, 2025 at 7:33 AM
    3. Replies
      20
      Views
      7.5k
      20

    4. Kalosyni

      July 8, 2025 at 7:33 AM

    2. Mocking Epithets 3

      • Bryan
      • July 6, 2025 at 9:47 PM
    3. Replies
      3
      Views
      623
      3

    4. Bryan

      July 6, 2025 at 9:47 PM

Finding Things At EpicureanFriends.com

What's the best strategy for finding things on EpicureanFriends.com? Here's a suggested search strategy:

  • First, familiarize yourself with the list of forums. The best way to find threads related to a particular topic is to look in the relevant forum. Over the years most people have tried to start threads according to forum topic, and we regularly move threads from our "general discussion" area over to forums with more descriptive titles.
  • Use the "Search" facility at the top right of every page. Note that the search box asks you what section of the forum you'd like to search. If you don't know, select "Everywhere." Also check the "Search Assistance" page.
  • Use the "Tag" facility, starting with the "Key Tags By Topic" in the right hand navigation pane, or using the "Search By Tag" page, or the "Tag Overview" page which contains a list of all tags alphabetically. We curate the available tags to keep them to a manageable number that is descriptive of frequently-searched topics.