1. New
  2. Home
    1. Get Started - Activities
    2. Posting Policies
    3. Community Standards
    4. Terms of Use
    5. Moderator Team
    6. Member Announcements
    7. Site Map
    8. Quizzes
    9. Articles
      1. Featured Articles
    10. All Blog Posts
      1. Elli's Blog / Articles
  3. Wiki
    1. Wiki Home
    2. FAQ
    3. Classical Epicureanism
    4. Physics
    5. Canonics
    6. Ethics
    7. Search Assistance
    8. Not NeoEpicurean
    9. Foundations
    10. Navigation Outlines
    11. Key Pages
  4. Forum
    1. New Activity
    2. New Threads
    3. Welcome
    4. General Discussion
    5. Featured
    6. Activism
    7. Shortcuts
    8. Dashboard
    9. Full Forum List
    10. Level 3+
    11. Most Discussed
  5. Podcast
    1. Lucretius Today Podcast
    2. Episode Guide
    3. Lucretius Today At Youtube
    4. EpicureanFriends Youtube Page
  6. Texts
    1. Overview
    2. Diogenes Laertius
    3. Principal Doctrines
    4. Vatican Sayings
    5. Lucretius
    6. Herodotus
    7. Pythocles
    8. Menoeceus
    9. Fragments - Usener Collection
    10. Torquatus On Ethics
    11. Velleius On Gods
    12. Greek/Latin Help
  7. Gallery
    1. Featured images
    2. Albums
    3. Latest Images
    4. Latest Comments
  8. Calendar
    1. Upcoming Events List
    2. Zoom Meetings
    3. This Month
    4. Sunday Zoom Meetings
    5. First Monday Zoom Meetings
    6. Wednesday Zoom Meeting
    7. Twentieth Zoom Meetings
    8. Zoom Meetings
  9. Other
    1. Featured Content
    2. Blog Posts
    3. Files
    4. Logbook
    5. EF ToDo List
    6. Link-Database
  • Login
  • Register
  • Search
This Thread
  • Everywhere
  • This Thread
  • This Forum
  • Forum
  • Articles
  • Blog Articles
  • Files
  • Gallery
  • Events
  • Pages
  • Wiki
  • Help
  • FAQ
  • More Options

Welcome To EpicureanFriends.com!

"Remember that you are mortal, and you have a limited time to live, and in devoting yourself to discussion of the nature of time and eternity you have seen things that have been, are now, and are to come."

Sign In Now
or
Register a new account
  1. New
  2. Home
    1. Get Started - Activities
    2. Posting Policies
    3. Community Standards
    4. Terms of Use
    5. Moderator Team
    6. Member Announcements
    7. Site Map
    8. Quizzes
    9. Articles
      1. Featured Articles
    10. All Blog Posts
      1. Elli's Blog / Articles
  3. Wiki
    1. Wiki Home
    2. FAQ
    3. Classical Epicureanism
    4. Physics
    5. Canonics
    6. Ethics
    7. Search Assistance
    8. Not NeoEpicurean
    9. Foundations
    10. Navigation Outlines
    11. Key Pages
  4. Forum
    1. New Activity
    2. New Threads
    3. Welcome
    4. General Discussion
    5. Featured
    6. Activism
    7. Shortcuts
    8. Dashboard
    9. Full Forum List
    10. Level 3+
    11. Most Discussed
  5. Podcast
    1. Lucretius Today Podcast
    2. Episode Guide
    3. Lucretius Today At Youtube
    4. EpicureanFriends Youtube Page
  6. Texts
    1. Overview
    2. Diogenes Laertius
    3. Principal Doctrines
    4. Vatican Sayings
    5. Lucretius
    6. Herodotus
    7. Pythocles
    8. Menoeceus
    9. Fragments - Usener Collection
    10. Torquatus On Ethics
    11. Velleius On Gods
    12. Greek/Latin Help
  7. Gallery
    1. Featured images
    2. Albums
    3. Latest Images
    4. Latest Comments
  8. Calendar
    1. Upcoming Events List
    2. Zoom Meetings
    3. This Month
    4. Sunday Zoom Meetings
    5. First Monday Zoom Meetings
    6. Wednesday Zoom Meeting
    7. Twentieth Zoom Meetings
    8. Zoom Meetings
  9. Other
    1. Featured Content
    2. Blog Posts
    3. Files
    4. Logbook
    5. EF ToDo List
    6. Link-Database
  1. New
  2. Home
    1. Get Started - Activities
    2. Posting Policies
    3. Community Standards
    4. Terms of Use
    5. Moderator Team
    6. Member Announcements
    7. Site Map
    8. Quizzes
    9. Articles
      1. Featured Articles
    10. All Blog Posts
      1. Elli's Blog / Articles
  3. Wiki
    1. Wiki Home
    2. FAQ
    3. Classical Epicureanism
    4. Physics
    5. Canonics
    6. Ethics
    7. Search Assistance
    8. Not NeoEpicurean
    9. Foundations
    10. Navigation Outlines
    11. Key Pages
  4. Forum
    1. New Activity
    2. New Threads
    3. Welcome
    4. General Discussion
    5. Featured
    6. Activism
    7. Shortcuts
    8. Dashboard
    9. Full Forum List
    10. Level 3+
    11. Most Discussed
  5. Podcast
    1. Lucretius Today Podcast
    2. Episode Guide
    3. Lucretius Today At Youtube
    4. EpicureanFriends Youtube Page
  6. Texts
    1. Overview
    2. Diogenes Laertius
    3. Principal Doctrines
    4. Vatican Sayings
    5. Lucretius
    6. Herodotus
    7. Pythocles
    8. Menoeceus
    9. Fragments - Usener Collection
    10. Torquatus On Ethics
    11. Velleius On Gods
    12. Greek/Latin Help
  7. Gallery
    1. Featured images
    2. Albums
    3. Latest Images
    4. Latest Comments
  8. Calendar
    1. Upcoming Events List
    2. Zoom Meetings
    3. This Month
    4. Sunday Zoom Meetings
    5. First Monday Zoom Meetings
    6. Wednesday Zoom Meeting
    7. Twentieth Zoom Meetings
    8. Zoom Meetings
  9. Other
    1. Featured Content
    2. Blog Posts
    3. Files
    4. Logbook
    5. EF ToDo List
    6. Link-Database
  1. EpicureanFriends - Home of Classical Epicurean Philosophy
  2. Forum
  3. Epicurean Texts
  4. Diogenes of Oinoanda
  5. The Inscription of Diogenes of Oinoanda
  • Sidebar
  • Sidebar

New Article on the Inscription (And the "Bitter Gift" Misattribution)

  • Cassius
  • October 2, 2022 at 8:29 PM
  • Go to last post
Regularly Checking In On A Small Screen Device? Bookmark THIS page!
  • Online
    Cassius
    05 - Administrator
    Points
    102,499
    Posts
    14,030
    Quizzes
    9
    Quiz rate
    100.0 %
    • October 2, 2022 at 8:29 PM
    • #1

    Edit: This thread concerns the article here, but much of the discussion focuses on the "bitter gift" reference.

    https://greekreporter.com/2022/10/02/ancient-inscription-benefits-epicuranism/

  • Online
    Cassius
    05 - Administrator
    Points
    102,499
    Posts
    14,030
    Quizzes
    9
    Quiz rate
    100.0 %
    • October 2, 2022 at 10:07 PM
    • #2

    Bitter gift? Apparently this person has read a different version of the letter to Menoeceus than I have:

    Quote

    While the pursuit of pleasure formed the focal point of the philosophy, this was largely directed to minimizing pain, anxiety and suffering. In fact, Epicurus referred to life as a “bitter gift” in his “Letter to Menoeceus”.

  • Online
    Cassius
    05 - Administrator
    Points
    102,499
    Posts
    14,030
    Quizzes
    9
    Quiz rate
    100.0 %
    • October 2, 2022 at 10:16 PM
    • #3

    Lots of stress on "absence of pain" that I think leaves the wrong balance as if pain must be avoided at all cost, but overall much more detailed than the average generalist article.

  • Online
    Cassius
    05 - Administrator
    Points
    102,499
    Posts
    14,030
    Quizzes
    9
    Quiz rate
    100.0 %
    • October 3, 2022 at 9:07 AM
    • #4

    That "bitter gift" reference now has me curious. Doesn't seem like something someone would come up with at random, and even the "gift' part doesn't sound really like Epicurus. I wonder if this person has totally transposed this thought from someone else and that "life as a 'bitter gift'" is a core thought of a competing philosopher.

  • Eikadistes
    Garden Bard
    Points
    14,527
    Posts
    843
    Quizzes
    3
    Quiz rate
    94.7 %
    Bookmarks
    10
    • October 3, 2022 at 10:32 AM
    • #5

    The author proposes that Epicureanism “propounded the avoidance of all things that would cause pain in life” which contradicts Epicurus’ statement that “sometimes we pass over many pleasures, when greater discomfort accrues to us as the result of them: and similarly we think many pains better than pleasures, since a greater pleasure comes to us when we have endured pains for a long time […] For the good on certain occasions we treat as bad, and conversely the bad as good.” The author seems to extrapolate an avoidant, escapist interpretation of Epicurean philosophy.

    They gloss over Epicurus’ explicit recognition that “Hēdonē [and not ataraxia] is the Greatest Good” and then interprets Epicureanism as being a mild form of asceticism (like the "Middle Way" of Buddhism, of which I make additional criticism below). Note the incoherence of the author’s following statement: “Although Epicureanism is a form of hedonism […] it [is] very different from hedonism”. As usual, the author equates the word “hedonism” with something gross and morally bankrupt, and implies that only a rejection of “true” hedonism can be considered justifiable.

    I also find the following proposition dubious: “Today, [the stone inscription at Oinoanda] remains the only ancient philosophical text from the Greek and Roman world to have survived in its original form, according to Archaeology Magazine.” The author later contradicts this assertion when acknowledging that “Deciphered carbonized scrolls obtained from the library at the Villa of the Papyri in Herculaneum contain a large number of works by Philodemus, a late Hellenistic Epicurean, and even Epicurus himself, attesting to the school’s enduring popularity.”

    I do agree, however, with his statement that “The philosophy is often misunderstood.”

    The author goes on to propose that “Epicureanism rejects immortality”, which feels right to critical, modern eyes, however, it reduces the nuanced employment of “immortality” in Epicurean philosophy. The animal gods have become indestructible as described by Epicurus. The measurement of daily pleasure is also immortal. Friendship is an immortal good. Indeed, we do not have immortal lives, and we are not born again, however, like “the gods”, the idea of “immortality” is re-fashioned in Epicurean terminology, so the author slightly misses the mark on this point.

    I also found another very common, very false comparison between Epicureanism and Buddhism, which, again, I emphasize, are on opposite ends of the philosophical spectrum: “The Epicurean way of life also resembles Buddhism in its temperateness, including the belief that great excess leads to great dissatisfaction.” This always indicates to me that the author does not have a thorough understanding of the nuances of either tradition, and, like many perennialists, chooses to find similarities between their philosophies-of-choice, regardless of their original, historical context.

    Overall, the author repeats a number of common misconceptions about the philosophy, while mostly hitting the bullet points. This is a good article to demonstrate some of the widespread misunderstanding of Epicureanism.

  • Online
    Cassius
    05 - Administrator
    Points
    102,499
    Posts
    14,030
    Quizzes
    9
    Quiz rate
    100.0 %
    • October 3, 2022 at 12:42 PM
    • #6

    Nate that's a superb summary of which I think Epicurus would be proud, and I know I find greatly helpful myself. Thank you!

  • Don
    ΕΠΙΚΟΥΡΕΙΟΣ (Epicurist)
    Points
    39,827
    Posts
    5,545
    Quizzes
    9
    Quiz rate
    92.8 %
    • October 3, 2022 at 2:06 PM
    • #7
    Quote from Cassius

    That "bitter gift" reference now has me curious. Doesn't seem like something someone would come up with at random, and even the "gift' part doesn't sound really like Epicurus. I wonder if this person has totally transposed this thought from someone else and that "life as a 'bitter gift'" is a core thought of a competing philosopher.

    It's also word for word in the Wikipedia article:

    Epicureanism - Wikipedia
    en.wikipedia.org
  • Don
    ΕΠΙΚΟΥΡΕΙΟΣ (Epicurist)
    Points
    39,827
    Posts
    5,545
    Quizzes
    9
    Quiz rate
    92.8 %
    • October 3, 2022 at 4:07 PM
    • #8

    By Zeus! "Bitter gift" shows up everywhere!!

    https://www.google.com/search?q=%22bitter+gift%22+Epicureanism+&client=ms-android-verizon-us-rvc3&ei=gEA7Y6-hNLKnptQP3sSCsAg&oq=%22bitter+gift%22+Epicureanism+&gs_lcp=ChNtb2JpbGUtZ3dzLXdpei1zZXJwEAMyBQghEKABMgUIIRCgATIFCCEQoAEyBQghEKsCOgoIABBHENYEELADOgUIABCABDoGCAAQHhAWOggIABAeEA8QFjoHCCEQoAEQCjoHCCEQChCrAkoECEEYAFCgDljwhAFgoo4BaAJwAHgAgAHhAYgB7QySAQUwLjkuMZgBAKABAcgBBcABAQ&sclient=mobile-gws-wiz-serp

  • Kalosyni
    Student of the Kepos
    Points
    17,229
    Posts
    2,095
    Quizzes
    2
    Quiz rate
    90.9 %
    • October 3, 2022 at 6:43 PM
    • #9

    Maybe Joshua has some insights, as I see a reference to "bitter gift" from an Ancient Greek tragedy Hippolytus by Euripides ("bitter gift" of Poseidon):

    The Greek Plays
    books.google.com
  • Don
    ΕΠΙΚΟΥΡΕΙΟΣ (Epicurist)
    Points
    39,827
    Posts
    5,545
    Quizzes
    9
    Quiz rate
    92.8 %
    • October 3, 2022 at 7:13 PM
    • #10

    I was a bit shocked to see "bitter gift" so widespread across the Internet!

    It's just so counterintuitive if one knows anything about Epicurus's philosophy. Life is a precious gift if anything... Although "gift" sets up the idea that there's a giver so that's a bit problematic.

    So, there's yet another topic that needs corrected... In addition to all the rest ;(

  • Kalosyni
    Student of the Kepos
    Points
    17,229
    Posts
    2,095
    Quizzes
    2
    Quiz rate
    90.9 %
    • October 3, 2022 at 7:20 PM
    • #11
    Quote from Don

    By Zeus! "Bitter gift" shows up everywhere!!

    Quote from Don

    Although "gift" sets up the idea that there's a giver so that's a bit problematic.

    I have to say it is not necessarily "everywhere".

    I think it may be an attempted smear campaign, because it is on a few Christian websites. But it is very upsetting that it is on the wikipedia website (and this wikipedia is poorly/incorrectly written).

  • Don
    ΕΠΙΚΟΥΡΕΙΟΣ (Epicurist)
    Points
    39,827
    Posts
    5,545
    Quizzes
    9
    Quiz rate
    92.8 %
    • October 3, 2022 at 7:24 PM
    • #12
    Quote from Kalosyni

    Maybe Joshua has some insights, as I see a reference to "bitter gift" from an Ancient Greek tragedy Hippolytus by Euripides ("bitter gift" of Poseidon):

    https://books.google.com/books?id=s7wvD…polytus&f=false

    Oh, this is fun! That line is also translated:

    Hippolytus

    Poseidon your father's gifts, what woe they brought!

    In Greek:

    Ιππόλυτος

    ὦ δῶρα πατρὸς σοῦ Ποσειδῶνος πικρά.

    That last word of the Greek πικρά "bitter" is the same word that shows up in Democritus's quote about "by convention" we've been discussing elsewhere.

    So, ὦ δῶρα πικρά. is literally "the bitter gift."

  • Don
    ΕΠΙΚΟΥΡΕΙΟΣ (Epicurist)
    Points
    39,827
    Posts
    5,545
    Quizzes
    9
    Quiz rate
    92.8 %
    • October 3, 2022 at 7:29 PM
    • #13
    Quote from Kalosyni

    But it is very upsetting that it is on the wikipedia website

    Yeah, I'm going to need to go in and take that out of the Wikipedia article with a "citation needed" if someone's going to say "Epicurus called life a "bitter gift."" I've spent some time with the letter to Menoikeus and I can say for certain that that phrase is *not* in there.

  • Online
    Cassius
    05 - Administrator
    Points
    102,499
    Posts
    14,030
    Quizzes
    9
    Quiz rate
    100.0 %
    • October 3, 2022 at 8:13 PM
    • #14

    Sounds like the Greek Reporter website might have picked it up at Wikipedia. Correcting that reference would be highly desirable since so many people start there.

  • Don
    ΕΠΙΚΟΥΡΕΙΟΣ (Epicurist)
    Points
    39,827
    Posts
    5,545
    Quizzes
    9
    Quiz rate
    92.8 %
    • October 30, 2022 at 4:54 PM
    • #15
    Quote from Don

    Yeah, I'm going to need to go in and take that out of the Wikipedia article with a "citation needed" if someone's going to say "Epicurus called life a "bitter gift.""

    Done. And I've added a note to the article's Talk page that someone's going to need a citation to add it back in.

  • Online
    Cassius
    05 - Administrator
    Points
    102,499
    Posts
    14,030
    Quizzes
    9
    Quiz rate
    100.0 %
    • October 30, 2022 at 7:13 PM
    • #16

    Great work!

  • Don
    ΕΠΙΚΟΥΡΕΙΟΣ (Epicurist)
    Points
    39,827
    Posts
    5,545
    Quizzes
    9
    Quiz rate
    92.8 %
    • June 18, 2023 at 12:11 AM
    • #17

    I see that "bitter gift" referred to on this Jehovah's Witness site:

    https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1997805

    "Lacking “the joy of Jehovah,” Epicurus called life a “bitter gift.” (Nehemiah 8:10)"

    And then other sites quote the letter to Menoikeus about the pleasures of the profligate. But nowhere does Epicurus call life a *bitter gift*... Nowhere! It's frustrating that it appears so widespread online!!

  • Cassius September 1, 2023 at 8:08 AM

    Moved the thread from forum The Inscription of Diogenes of Oinoanda (sub-folder) to forum The Inscription of Diogenes of Oinoanda.

Unread Threads

    1. Title
    2. Replies
    3. Last Reply
    1. Who are capable of figuring the problem out 5

      • Like 1
      • Patrikios
      • June 5, 2025 at 4:25 PM
      • General Discussion
      • Patrikios
      • June 6, 2025 at 6:54 PM
    2. Replies
      5
      Views
      284
      5
    3. Patrikios

      June 6, 2025 at 6:54 PM
    1. What fears does modern science remove, as Epicurean physics did in antiquity? 31

      • Like 5
      • sanantoniogarden
      • June 2, 2025 at 3:35 PM
      • General Discussion
      • sanantoniogarden
      • June 6, 2025 at 2:05 PM
    2. Replies
      31
      Views
      897
      31
    3. Don

      June 6, 2025 at 2:05 PM
    1. Porphyry - Letter to Marcella -"Vain Is the Word of the Philosopher..." 17

      • Like 1
      • Cassius
      • June 12, 2023 at 11:34 AM
      • Usener Collection
      • Cassius
      • June 3, 2025 at 11:17 PM
    2. Replies
      17
      Views
      5.8k
      17
    3. Bryan

      June 3, 2025 at 11:17 PM
    1. Daily life of ancient Epicureans / 21st Century Epicureans 38

      • Like 3
      • Robert
      • May 21, 2025 at 8:23 PM
      • General Discussion
      • Robert
      • May 29, 2025 at 1:44 PM
    2. Replies
      38
      Views
      2.8k
      38
    3. Pacatus

      May 29, 2025 at 1:44 PM
    1. Emily Austin's "LIving For Pleasure" Wins Award. (H/T to Lowri for finding this!)

      • Like 4
      • Cassius
      • May 28, 2025 at 10:57 PM
      • General Discussion
      • Cassius
      • May 28, 2025 at 10:57 PM
    2. Replies
      0
      Views
      249

Latest Posts

  • Tsouna's On Choices and Avoidances

    Robert June 8, 2025 at 1:37 AM
  • Episode 285 - Not Yet Recorded - Cicero Attacks Epicurus' PD04 And Says Virtue And Honor Is the Way To Overcome Bodily Pain

    Cassius June 7, 2025 at 3:12 PM
  • Updated Thoughts on the Question of "Peace and Safety" in the Works of Norman Dewitt

    Joshua June 7, 2025 at 2:02 PM
  • Who are capable of figuring the problem out

    Patrikios June 6, 2025 at 6:54 PM
  • What fears does modern science remove, as Epicurean physics did in antiquity?

    Don June 6, 2025 at 2:05 PM
  • Sunday, June 15 - Topic: The Letter of Cosma Raimondi

    Cassius June 6, 2025 at 1:46 PM
  • Welcome Balin!

    sanantoniogarden June 6, 2025 at 1:08 PM
  • Sunday, June 8, 2025 - Discussion Topic - "Practice" In Relation To Pain, Pleasure, and Happiness

    Cassius June 6, 2025 at 9:26 AM
  • What if Kyriai Doxai was NOT a list?

    Don June 5, 2025 at 7:12 AM
  • EpicureanFriends WIKI 2025 - Upgrades, Revisions, Planning

    Cassius June 4, 2025 at 2:23 PM

Similar Threads

  • Epicurean Friends Newsletter - March 2019

    • Cassius
    • February 25, 2019 at 3:41 PM
    • Greetings For Twentieth And Other Events

EpicureanFriends - Classical Epicurean Philosophy

  1. Home
    1. About Us
    2. Classical Epicurean Philosophy
  2. Wiki
    1. Getting Started
  3. Frequently Asked Questions
    1. Site Map
  4. Forum
    1. Latest Threads
    2. Featured Threads
    3. Unread Posts
  5. Texts
    1. Core Texts
    2. Biography of Epicurus
    3. Lucretius
  6. Articles
    1. Latest Articles
  7. Gallery
    1. Featured Images
  8. Calendar
    1. This Month At EpicureanFriends
Powered by WoltLab Suite™ 6.0.22
Style: Inspire by cls-design
Stylename
Inspire
Manufacturer
cls-design
Licence
Commercial styles
Help
Supportforum
Visit cls-design