"Religion is a part of me"... how to deal with that?

Quote from smoothiekiwi

Still, I think that there may be- rare- situations where it's necessary to harm other people in order to be individually happy... because if you don't, then that means that it becomes some sort of abstract thought or dogma, like "thou shall not harm thy neighbor". But I also have to admit that I can't think of any example where consciously inflicting pain on someone will bring you more pleasure in the long run... what do you think on that?

There could be an instance of a "protective use of force"...an act of self-protection coming from a need to defend your own safety or the safety of someone you love...in which you hurt someone out of self-defense, but hopely you can do it in such a way as to not kill or mame them.

Quote from Cassius

What is "atruism"? Putting others first always? That would certainly not be Epicurean. What is "hedonism?" Putting pleasure first always? Yes, from a certain perspective, but absolutely no from a moment to moment perspective, because we often choose pain to avoid worse pain or pursue greater pleasure.

I heard it said that even Mother Teresa, who was the famous Catholic nun, who dedicated her life to altruism in the slums of Calcutta, was doing it because she was deriving some pleasure from it. I would guess that she was more focused on the mental pleasure of it than the physical pleasure. (Did she learn to enjoy it out of some kind of "Christian duty"?...hard to say).The danger comes when people think...oh, everyone should be like Mother Teresa. Everyone has differenting personalities and preferences and different ways of enjoying the world. I myself have never felt any calling to do volunteer or non-profit work, and I think it is because I am very introverted and those kinds of situations would cause me a lot of mental stress. However, I can imagine a very extroverted person finding a lot of joy in doing some altruistic work because of some aspect of it that gives them mental pleasure.

Quote from Cassius

love" isn't the ultimate value in the Epicurean worldview, so has to be treated with caution too. As you observed smoothkiwi in another recent thread, not every example of prudent eating is Epicurean. Not every instance of "common sense" is Epicurean, and by similar token not every instance of love, or even of pleasure, is something that Epicurus advised everyone to engage in all the time.

I don't intend this to sound harsh of course but it's really challenging to think through the implications of what Epicurus is teaching. It doesn't add up to "god is love" or even "the universe is pleasure" or any kind of master intention-based plan of action that applies everywhere and all the time. "Pleasure" probably comes the closest to the universal motivating force, but every time we say that we need to remember that Epicurus was plain that we don't choose every immediate pleasure.

So this makes Epicureanism quite difficult to teach. And only certain people will be able to grasp this big picture understanding of Epicureanism, and that there are no "black and white" absolutes. You have to be able to think for youself, judge for yourself, and make decisions for yourself.

Quote from Kalosyni

And only certain people will be able to grasp this big picture understanding of Epicureanism,

Exactly that seems to be contemplated in several sections of the texts, not the least of which is the Diogenes Laertius section translated as:

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A man cannot become wise with every kind of physical constitution, nor in every nation.

As well as in Torquatus' statement:

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Yet nevertheless some men indulge without limit their avarice, ambition and love of power, lust, gluttony and those other desires, which ill-gotten gains can never diminish but rather must inflame the more; inasmuch that they appear proper subjects for restraint rather than for reformation.

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Nate, when I read your lines, I thought to myself "that's what attracts me to Christianity!" Because it really sounds like a lot of fun (and pleasure )- to meet up with like-minded friends, discuss philosophical issues and generally enjoying a day off. And I found myself asking: "What if I can have the same, but without the religious doctrines on it?" It sounds like a dream to me! Even so, wouldn't it make sense to adapt the Christian worldview- at least parly- in order to experience this pleasure, or will it have more pain in the long run?

Most American Christians cannot identify Clement of Alexandria. You'd have a better time as an intellectual Christian discussing Christian theology in a secular philosophy classroom with other students than at local Bible study. Your average Christian reads at an 8th-grade level and have absolutely no interest "discussing philosophical ideas", especially whenever those ideas pose a challenge to the stability of their "like-minded" social environment.

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That's a shame :(. But why are there then so many adult Christians?

There are so many Christian adults for the same reason there are so many Muslim adults in Iraq and Communist adults in China. Religious affiliation is a reflection of one's social environment. My thesis is that the form of "religion" that is mostly practiced by American Christians (specifically) is a social phenomenon, not an intellectual one.

This topic is something I struggle with till this day... I was raised catholic and have gone back forth from catholicism to epicurean philosophy many times...I was even a catholic monk for a short time.

There is a reason PD1 is so important. Anyway I don't have much to add but I know the feeling of a religion feeling inescapable...I believe Cassius may have similar experience if I recall from previous conversation years ago now..

For me it was difficult as well… I had multiple times where I reverted back. But the reality is now (in my opinion) the world reflects the naturalistic ideas of Epicureanism. I don’t see miracles, I don’t see angels, I don’t see the righteous and pious being rewarded and the sinners being punished. When someone says “God blessed me” for saving me from disaster, but simultaneously allows someone else to have tragedy, the answer is always its all in God’s plan. I just don’t see any of that. It takes years to undo what has been put in our minds….

And I don’t take this lightly, I know it’s powerful. It can cause a person to abandon friends, forsake family and allow some terrible folks to justify their really terrible behavior with “greasy grace”… even if I sin I am always forgiven, bought and paid for. It’s the ultimate lack of accountability with no warranty.