Exposition therapy,Courage and when choosing Pain

Good topic Matteng but please edit your first line:

Quote from Matteng

In the past I often read/here:

I it looks like you mean to say " read / hear "

because you've included a lot that I don't think you read HERE!

This kind of idea truly annoys me for two reasons:

First, because it assumes the ancient Epicureans were some sort of fragile cowards who could not bear any discomfort(which is not true, given that Epicureanism is capable of producing some of the most resilient and wisest people).

Second, most modern people who talk about the value of suffering/struggle often do so because they believe they will get more pleasure in the future. For example, one trains really hard in the gym in order to get the pleasure of being admired, or of proving themselves capable, or of living healthy lives, etc. They don't do this sacrifice for some other, more abstract goal(like virtue).

Basically, they live pursuing pleasure, while also condemning the thinker who encouraged the search for pleasure and praising the thinkers who would call these people's pursuits petty or futile.

I am a bit out of the loop on this thread, but just some quick reactions off the top of my head, to focus on "what Epicureans would do"...

Quote from SillyApe

For example, one trains really hard in the gym in order to get the pleasure of being admired, or of proving themselves capable, or of living healthy lives, etc.

"being admired" -- I don't think that Epicureans (those that truly follow the philosophy of Epicurus) spend too much time on this, because they are surrounded by good friends who value them for other reasons.

"proving themselves capable" -- I don't think that Epicureans would spend much time on this one either...because the main focus would be for concrete benefits that result such as feelings of good health.

"living healthy lives" --

Quote from SillyApe

Basically, they live pursuing pleasure, while also condemning the thinker who encouraged the search for pleasure and praising the thinkers who would call these people's pursuits petty or futile.

I'm unclear on the paragraph, likely because it is refering to a much older post...

"Basically, they live pursuing pleasure"

"condemning the thinker who encouraged the search for pleasure" -- I assume you are refering to the stoics here.

Kalosyni Yes, I was thinking about the Stoics, but this also serves for any thinker who denies that pleasure is the end.

For example, let's say someone decides they are going to "hustle" and work 80 hours a week for 5 years in order to earn a lot of money, because they believe that a lot of money will allow them to buy expensive things, attract people they are attracted to, and provide them with a lot of fancy experiences. They are aiming to get the pleasure they believe they'll get from those things.

Then, to give credit to their actions, they come up with quotes from Marcus Aurelius or Nietzsche about resilience or strength, even if these thinkers would look at this person's aim as foolish. At the same time, the person, assuming they know Epicurus, would reject him, as the person would see Epicurus' teachings on managing desire as being against the "hustle."

Obviously, Epicurus would advise against this endless desire, excessive work, and the belief that the maximization of pleasure requires a lot of wealth/sex/consummerism, but he, at least, is aligned with the person's idea that the goal is pleasure, while Marcus Aurelius or Nietzsche are not.