Episode 288 of the Lucretius Today Podcast is now available. Today our episode is entitled: "Will The Wise Man Feel Grief Or Other Strong Emotions?"

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Yes Dave those are several of the most key references to prolepsis in the major texts. I would say that any good interpretation of prolepsis needs to be reconcilable with them. I don't find that DeWitt's choice of words is always the best, in that he…

Do our learned friends here take issue with the following discussion by DeWitt? Please be specific and explain why the below is inapposite to this thread.

I ask because the posts discussed earlier are overwhelming me. The following comments and quotations…

I think it's very relevant to point out that Velleius pretty clearly divides the core attributes of blessedness and imlerishability from any other speculations, diving that from what the mind strives for further:



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And later on he says:

XVIII. With regard…

"I can't find any arguments that would justify Epicurus' claims..."



To what claims are you referring? I see no claim other than that a god is a totally happy and totally deathless being. And I see examples of some things that are happier than others,…

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I would consider prolḗpseis to just be raw, pre-interpretive mental data, like sensations are just physical data, and feelings are just emotional data, all of which are produced prior to evaluation or reflection. We digest all of this data when we…

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Thanks Cassius That's exactly where I struggle with regarding epicurean prolepsis of gods and I can't find any arguments that would justify Epicurus' claims. When you say this:

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I instantaneously say: There are no patterns for blessedness and…

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Yes, if someone shows you a diseased rat in a cage and says, "This is a god!" -- the immediate, automatic rejection you feel comes from the fact that it does not match your prolēpsis (i.e., mental sense / anticipation) of what a god is.

Only after that…

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I agree this is useful. Like a camera, the eyes and other senses are continuously receiving stimulation and input. Something in our brains has to decide what inputs to pay attention to and to assemble into relevant connections before we start…

Bryan will likely do better than me but I would say:

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I think according to your own reasoning, with which I agree, saying "prolepsis of gods" is improper. Eyes don't see gods or trees or birds or any other "object" either. Once you assign a word or name…

Thank you, Bryan

And of course Heraclitus comes in for direct mention in Lucretius:

1-635 (continuing in following sections....)

Wherefore those who have thought that fire is the substance of things, and that the whole sum is composed of fire alone, are seen to fall very…

I really like your photo album analogy, sanantoniogarden . This part especially highlights my own struggles with prolepsis:

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There are several problems I struggle to resolve. "Baseball" file creation based on the series of photos requires reasoning…

Plátō mocked the Heracliteans and their theory of flux by calling them "the fluxing ones" (Theaetetus 180c).

The mocking epithet Epíkouros used for Hērákleitos was "Kykētḗs" which means "the Agitator."

Epíkouros' term alludes to Hērákleitos' own…

There is also a lot of good discussion at the Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy:

2. Theory of Knowledge

Heraclitus sees the great majority of human beings as lacking understanding:

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Most people sleep-walk through life, not understanding what is going on…

I've moved this over to a new thread so that it will be easier over time to explore this precise relationship. In the meantime pending a better source of quotes, here is what Wikipedia says:



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Also:

Diogenes Laërtius relays the story that the playwright …

There is one passage the relevance of which I think is underappreciated in the prolepsis discussion. This below from fragment 5 of Diogenes of Oinoanda gets referenced frequently in regard to Epicurus' canon in general, but I wonder if it not a specific…

Welcome r121

There is one last step to complete your registration:

All new registrants must post a response to this message here in this welcome thread (we do this in order to minimize spam registrations).

You must post your response within 24 hours, or…

A quote of Sedley From this article. 

"According to Timocrates, Epicurus insulted the Cyzicenes... ...Eudoxus of Cnidos, the great mathematical astronomer and associate of Plato, taught for a period at Cyzicus, and produced there several distinguished…

An analogy (imperfect at best) I use to describe prolepsis, which should be familiar to most these days, are the cameras on our phones. Say that your mind is like a camera constantly taking pictures of various things. Take a picture of a big tree, little…

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I can provide a few instances that might help orient the idea. (And not that I have a full grasp – it's a slippery concept for us all – but these are the examples I found in the available works).

Diogénēs provides us with the following definition (per…

That's a really beautiful sentiment. I think I'd like to encourage these options with all of my family members. I worked IT for a funeral home acquisition company, and I spent some time installing network equipment in funeral homes after-hours, observing…

Rolf I hope I'm not abusing a topic, but I committed myself to reading DeWitt. DeWitt is hard reading for me, because he is constantly on both the offense and the defense.

Anyway, FYI if you choose to read more, in his chapter: VIII SENSATIONS,…

Long ago, my college speech prof put it simply, "Take your audience into account."

Recognition of Members Who Have Contributed More Than Thirty Posts On The Forum

Thank you for sharing this!

Here are some thoughts on conveying Epicurean philosophy, which would be relevant for in-person groups as well as online.

I believe that there is both theory and practice when you learn something, and for Epicurean philosophy I put together the following…

On a similar note, forest cemeteries have become popular in Germany in recent decades. My siblings fed the ashes of our mother to a tree in such a forest cemetery. The urn was buried with those of several others around that tree.

This is interesting:

https://weather.com/science/enviro…into-ocean-life

GREAT find!

I think it's worthwhile to provide the beginning of Part 2 in Book X from Aristotle's 'Nicomachean Ethics' (EN X, 2, 1172b) to show Eudoxus' views on pleasure. It's chronologically interesting taking into consideration that Eudoxus had died a year before…

Very interesting, thanks Kalosyni !

I plan to purchase the soft cover soon!

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Right on! I had no idea.

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"Her"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A._E._Stallings?wprov=sfla1

Also, Bryan or Don , if you have guys have any interest, would you take a swing at translating P.Herc. 1520 ("On Philosophy") by Polystratos? My translation right now sucks.

There's a lot of P.Herc. that needs English translations.

I've connected…

And greetings, all!

I've added a few other fun sections:

Thanks to Marcus with SoFE, I organized The Life of Philōnídēs, by Philódēmos, here.

I mention in another post I'm trying to reconstruct key dates for Philódēmos here.

You may also find my annotations…

Restructuring of forum:

The subform category previously labeled "Epicurean Lifestyle and Practical Applications" -- has now been absorbed into "Ethics - How to Live as an Epicurean". All of the sub-folders are still there and can be found toward the…

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You're welcome!

I hope it's accurate.

I made that connection while making my map of Anatolian regions, combined with some simultaneous research on the conditions of ancient Greek slavery. Once I realized Lampsakos was in Mysia, it jumped out at me…

In my opinion ... I have a soft-spot for Humphries' style, though I don't think it's the most educational. It speaks to me personally, and provides me with a poetry that I find entrancing.

M. F. Smith is definitely going to be your best, contemporary…

Thanks Eikadistes. I want to revamp our way of accessing and discussing the Doctrines and Sayings and I will work to incorporate those crossreferences in whatever I come up with.

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I think this is correct Eikadistes. What I think we can see in the discussion in Tusculan Disputations is that the Stoics were asserting that the good/wise/happy man is going to have no part of evil, and therefore we cannot ever label pain as evil. …

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Break the cycle of rebirths!

No, just kidding. You'll do well here to share jokes, make friends, and have fun learning.

Evidence is very fragmentary. I came across the figure as well in a few places:

“APOLLODORUS [of Lampsacus] [1] (fourth century BC)
Apollodorus was an Epicurean and a brother of Leontius of Lampsacus.” (Curnow, The Philosophers of the Ancient Worlds: An…

Check out Theory and Practice in Epicurean Political Philosophy: Security, Justice and Tranquility by Javier Aoiz, Marcelo D. Boeri (2023).

This is a great find. Thank you!

Good deal! I've shared the Principle Doctrines by Makridis [1] here and the Key Doctrines by A. A. Long and Sedley [2] here. The Fundamental Articles by Wallace are [3] here, and then the Authorized Doctrines by De Witt are [4] here. Of course, I've got…

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Here's how I read it:

"But even if the wise were tortured on a rack, they would be happy,⁴ and only the wise will have gratitude for friends both present and absent alike through both word and through deed.⁵ However, when tortured on the rack, at some…

Hi Everyone, coming up this next Monday is our First Monday Epicurean Meet-and-greet & Discussion Via Zoom. The topic of discussion this month: "Emotions in Epicurean Philosophy".

Agenda:

• Welcome and meet-and-greet: round the table greetings and

…

This guy makes very interesting historical videos about the late Roman Empire, in this case life for late Pagans. (Who he said, interestingly enough, called themselves "Hellenes").

He's worth a look.

How Was Life For Pagans In The Late Roman Empire?