Posts by Kalosyni

Quote from Adrastus

I suppose my motivation for posting it here was that I saw the topic name of "Conveying Epicurean Philosophy: Study and Practical Applications" and rather than start a new thread, I thought maybe the thread was meant to gather up different tools to use to explain Epicurean philosophy to folks.

Yes, we might eventually split off certain threads if the tools need more developement. (I confess that I am not exactly clear about your use of Johari windows).

I am seeing that there is a need for teaching of both the "theory" and "practical applications".

Theory = what and why

Practical applications = how

We really need both.

And also another issue is that in some sense Epicurean philosophy is like an elephant in a room with three blind men, where each man says either: "it is soft and smooth" (like an elephant ear) or "it is like a big tree (the trunk of an elephant) or "it is like a rope" (an elphant tail). Everyone is cognizing the philosophy in a slightly different manner.

So your starting point and your theory will dictate your "how" to implement it.

Quote from Adrastus

I come to unfortunately subtely resent opportunities to get free food or items or really much of anything, because I want to continue to appreciate and like things that I could continue to appreciate, and like if there weren't always in such ready supply or unwitteningly thrust upon me. More often getting "free" things becomes a felt loss of some sense of pleasure in the food in question or devalues items generally

I guess everyone develops attitudes and then eventually habits in relation to things, and this spurs on some thoughts... going further with VS35 which Don quoted above...my own attitude for "free" things is "wow, it just happened by chance that I was in the right place at the right time, and this really good thing happened, and I think "how lucky I am!" and then savor things AND file the experience away as a happy memory to reflect upon. And yet, thinking further I also did something to increase my chances to experience something pleasurable...I had my eyes open for opportunties and I took certain actions...and basically I am seeking to add pleasure into my life.

Quote from Kalosyni

So often self-help websites give out a recommendation to return to a simple lifestyle, as an antedote to the "too much" of modern life (too much noise, too much traffic, too much commotion, too much stuff).

And yet, it seems this is an individual issue, as it is really about what feels right for each person - Epicurean philosophy says to pay attention to what feels pleasant and pleasurable. So some people may not need "simplicity".

What brings pleasure and what brings pain, can be different for different people. For example as Adrastus mentioned birthday cake above, and I often find that the idea is more pleasurable than the experience, and that is because many people think that it needs to be a certain level of sweetness (ie very sweet). But for myself I find that the best cakes are less sweet AND they are homemade with quality ingredients - and there is nothing "simple" about a well-made homemade cake! ...and well-made homemade chocolate cake, yum!...doesn't come about for me too often, so I really enjoy it when I have it.

This may potentially may have some overlap to Philodemus writing on the emotion of anger.

Here is what I gather are the 4 Johari categories:

1. behavior, feelings, and motivation about yourself that are both known by you and known by other people

2. behavior, feelings, and motivation about yourself that are known by you, but are unknown by other people

3. behavior, feelings, and motivation about yourself that are unknown by you, but are known by other people

4. behavior, feelings, and motivation about yourself that are both unknown by you and unknown by other people

Adrastus Is your main motivation in bringing this Johari window aimed mainly in the arena of self-improment or helping others with self-improvement?

Here are some thoughts on conveying Epicurean philosophy, which would be relevant for in-person groups as well as online.

I believe that there is both theory and practice when you learn something, and for Epicurean philosophy I put together the following chart - "Epicurean Philosophy: Internal Study and External Behaviors". A lot of what happens with Epicurean philosophy is an internal experience, but it doesn't have to be stuck in a high level of abstraction.

***

And I've been thinking about the ladder of abstraction, and that whatever you place at the top will affect your ladder (how and what you are communicating).

Quote

The ladder of abstraction illustrates another problem with conveying ideas clearly: “dead-level abstracting.” This is Hayakawa’s phrase for when someone communicates almost exclusively at one level on the ladder.

Perched on the ladder’s top rungs, an economist may lecture on the labor force through high-level classifications, macroeconomic terminology, and phrases like “enunciatory modalities” (say what?). But unless he connects those ideas with the real jobs that people commute to and experience everyday, his meaning will be lost on listeners who don’t think like him.

“The trouble with speakers who never leave the higher levels of abstraction is not only that they fail to notice when they are saying something and when they are not; they also produce a similar lack of discrimination in their audiences,” Hayakawa writes.

Communicators who stick to the low-rung details don’t fare much better. A science journalist may write beautifully about a newly discovered fossil. But unless she ties those details and facts together into a handy generalization or purposeful takeaway about evolutionary history, then she’ll leave her readers wondering, “So what?”

You can read a bit more about the "ladder of abstraction" in this article:

Boost your communication skills with the “ladder of abstraction”

The “ladder of abstraction” reveals why people communicating about the same thing may be doing so at different levels — and how to fix that.

bigthink.com

This is interesting:

Your Final Resting Place Could Be A Reef - Videos from The Weather Channel

What if your ashes could help restore the planet, long after you’re gone? One company is transforming the idea of a “final resting place,” by offering…

weather.com

Restructuring of forum:

The subform category previously labeled "Epicurean Lifestyle and Practical Applications" -- has now been absorbed into "Ethics - How to Live as an Epicurean". All of the sub-folders are still there and can be found toward the second half of the Ethics section. (This was as per Cassius' discretion).

Hi Everyone, coming up this next Monday is our First Monday Epicurean Meet-and-greet & Discussion Via Zoom. The topic of discussion this month: "Emotions in Epicurean Philosophy".

Agenda:

• Welcome and meet-and-greet: round the table greetings and introductions.
• A short presentation on the discussion topic (by Kalosyni). Following the presentation, discussion prompts will be given to spur on the discussion, and we will go around the table offering everyone an opportunity to participate in the discussion.
• We may also include discussion on the latest forum threads and podcast, depending on how the evening flows.
• We also include time for any questions on Epicurean philosophy, especially for newer members.

This meeting is open to Level 02 members and up (and also Level 01 by approval of the moderator team). You can find out how to attend over in this other post. Hope to see you there!

After the restructuring, if each discussion thread is linked on the top of its respective Wiki page then that could be a way to access the discussion.

Otherwise I foresee that it will end up being difficult to locate any specific PD or VS, because they will all be out of order.

I stumbled on this by chance, and not sure how safe/reliable this whole thing is but for anyone interested in work-exchange vacations, and looks like you could learn skills:

Here is a list for Europe:

Volunteering in Europe - Workaway

(Couldn't get USA info to come up)

Bryan

Apollodorus

Quote from ceiltechbladhm

I was trying to find some of the original works of Epicurus when I came across this site. I did not know there were modern Epicureans.

ceiltechbladhm Welcome to the forum! Can you let us know if you have studied much about Epicurus before joining the forum, or if you are newly encountering the teachings? Any previous background in other philosophy studies? Is there a particular aspect of Epicurean philosophy that draws your interest or apsect that you are curious to learn more about?

Guidance for locating the proper place for posting:

You can either add to an existing discussion thread or you can post your question or topic to discuss as a new thread. Newer members - if you are unsure then you can ask in your welcome thread where to post.

When you start a new thread please decide if it falls under one of the following below and post into that sub-forum.

Choose from one of the following locations:

Physics - use either:

--Physics General Discussion

--one of the other specific sub-forums under Physics

Canonics- use either:

--Canonics General Discussion

--one of the other specific sub-forums under Canonics

Ethics (theory) - use either:

--Ethics General Discussion

--one of the other specific sub-forums under Ethics

Ethics Practical Applications (relevant for modern times) use either:

--the Practical Applications General Discussion

--one of the other specific sub-forums under Practical Applications

Ancient texts: Ancient texts - locate the specific text you would like to discuss (message the admin if you can't find what you are looking for)

Modern texts, articles, & videos - locate the specific text, etc you would like to discuss, or add new articles

Study resources or activism

Comparisons with other philosophies

Notable Epicureans, including Epicurus, Metrodorus, etc.

Other notable contributors

History, places, customs relevant to Epicureans or the time of Epicurus

Art & Symbolism

The Lucretius Today podcast

Zoom meetings

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This list may be updated or improved in the future...please let us know if you have any questions or suggestions for improvements.

Adrastus Welcome back!

Ulfilas Welcome to the forum!

Noah Calderon Welcome to the forum!

Here is a good intro video you might like, by Cassius. This is an older, yet very good overview (and one that first got me interested in joining the forum):

For a newer overview (which has a link that you may or many not have already seen on the homepage):

Could we say that prolepsis is an inborn ability that is required for reasoning - prolepsis is the ability to have pattern recognition. Because of prolepsis, the monkeys (in post 2 video above) know the difference between cucumbers and grapes. Then what happens next...they must be applying some level of reasoning - they remember that in the past they observed a repeated pattern of sharing out the same thing and they came to expect that to happen...but when it didn't happen it felt "wrong" to them.

If they had always each received something different from their first earliest experience, then perhaps they would have been conditioned to accept the difference.

So perhaps the experiment is flawed.

Quote from Rolf

If the work I put into attaining something pleasurable causes an more pain than the resulting pleasure, it’s not something I want to be pursuing anyway.

Now...what happens if it is a tie? ...that it results in equal levels of pleasure and pain. It seems that the default answer is to not do it...but what if you make a conscious choice to do it anyway, because of various reasons (and what would those reasons be?).

Quote from Rolf

I would argue that “what is pleasurable” and “human needs” are one and the same.

Yes!

Quote from Rolf

personally I find it most prudent to focus my efforts first on needs (that is, necessary desires), since their absence tends to result in pain.

Once I have those secured, I am free to pursue unnecessary pleasures (what I assume you mean by “what is hedonicly pleasurable”)

And you could say that hedonic pleasures are sometimes done to remove boredom. And sometimes they are done as a kind of medicine (or distraction, or a coping mechanism) when certain needs go unmet - of course the Epicurist would make sure to do this in such a manner as to not create worse pains).

I am thinking about another way to ask the question: How much work should be put into pursuing what is hedonicly pleasurable and how much work should go into pursuing human needs. Is there a method of evaluating what level of work (effort) is too much or too little -- your trying too hard or you are not trying hard enough -- and this may be an aspect of temperament in that some people may tend to "try too hard" and others may tend to "not try hard enough".

I've seen something on Reddit, written about "chasing after pleasure" as being a bad thing, and that Epicureans should just "relax" (code word for do less)...and my concern is that human needs will then go unmet...which will then result in a lesser quality of life (and less joy).

Quote from Rolf

I was interested in Taoism for some time before my discovery of Epicurean philosophy, and this reminds me of a common Taoist adage about “getting out of one’s own way”.

I think that with Epicurean philosophy it uses reasoning - mental thinking and evaluation - based on fundamental ideas which remove "ego" aspects (pursuit of riches, fame, or power, or status (of somehow being better than everyone else)...and instead thinking what does the human-animal need. So there are parallels but also differences (when comparing) such that we are going to maximalize indulence of "what an animal needs" (and I have ideas about this that I haven't yet talked much about, but perhaps I should soon, since the question of this thread may actually be a "compensation" for a lack of human need fulfilment (but will get into that in another thread).