Plato's Timaeus vs. On Nature, Book 14

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    Quote from Bryan

    This is readable and has line numbers. The pages are a little thin, but they do hold up to writing and highlighting: Link

    I didn't click on this link immediately so i didn't realize it was to a printed version.

    I guess in addition to that we need a link to something public domain at Archive.org in PDF - presumably a Jowett translation (?) - that has line numbers and potentially annotations. An older Loeb edition?


    A quick search of Archive.org has not been productive. It looks to me that for best word-searching ability we need a single PDF containing all of Jowett's edition of Plato's dialogues, which was apparently in seven volumes, with the last version being a third edition. It's well over a hundred years old so should be freely available.

    Strangely there does not seem to be a free older Loeb edition -- possibly because the Jowett pre-dated that and was considered the gold standard (?)

    I also see a Thomas Taylor edition but I don't know the reputation of that.

    Further notes:

    Archive.org seems to be damaged from its problems last year. The older Jowett editions which ought to be public domain are not downloadable easily, which chatgpt points to this edition which is much newer.

    I will check Hathitrust - not productive.

    It appears that the Online Libreary of Liberty has the full Jowett Series.

    Timaeus volume is here.

    This appears to be a master link from which the full set can be assembled.

    It sure would but Don that link doesn't work for me.

    I like Perseus for a lot of reasons but I also like having my own standard PDF for security reasons. It bothers me that the full Jowett available more easily on Archive.org. I thought it was in the past (?) Also, the text in the old editions s often annotated in creative ways. Actually I don't know what Jowett's reputation really is. I recall my college professor sort of joking about him as the authority but I don't know if that's true or not, or if Jowett has a reputation for being unjustifiably opinionated.

    I do see that Jowett's editions have very very long introductory summaries which might be useful in themselves, especially for word searching.

    Benjamin Jowett (1817–1893) is one of the most well-known translators of Plato into English. His translations, first published in the late 19th century, were widely influential and helped popularize Plato’s works among English-speaking audiences. However, his reputation as a translator is mixed.

    Chatgpt:

    Strengths of Jowett’s Translation:

    1. Elegance and Readability: Jowett’s translations are often praised for their literary quality. He sought to render Plato’s dialogues in smooth, flowing English that was accessible to a broad readership.
    2. Influence on Classical Studies: His work played a crucial role in shaping the study of Plato in the English-speaking world. Many generations of students and scholars first encountered Plato through Jowett’s translations.
    3. Extensive Commentary: Jowett’s introductions and notes provided valuable philosophical and historical context, making his editions useful for both students and general readers.

    Criticisms of Jowett’s Translation:

    1. Paraphrasing and Interpretation: Jowett often paraphrased rather than strictly translating Plato’s Greek. He sometimes imposed his own interpretations, which may not always align with the original text.
    2. Moral and Victorian Bias: His translations reflect the moral and intellectual climate of Victorian England. Some scholars argue that he sanitized or altered certain passages to conform to 19th-century sensibilities, particularly regarding issues like sexuality and religion.
    3. Lack of Precision: Compared to more modern translations, Jowett’s work can be imprecise, particularly in capturing the nuances of Plato’s philosophical arguments.

    Modern Alternatives:

    While Jowett’s translations remain influential and readable, many scholars prefer more recent translations that strive for greater accuracy and fidelity to the Greek text. Translations by scholars such as Thomas G. West, G. M. A. Grube, C. D. C. Reeve, and John M. Cooper (who edited Plato: Complete Works) are often recommended for academic study.

    In summary, Jowett’s translations are valuable for their literary quality and historical significance, but they should be read with awareness of their interpretative nature and potential biases.

    I wanted to highlight this section:

    "God began by first marking them out into shapes by means of forms and numbers. And that God constructed them, so far as He could, to be as fair and good as possible, whereas they had been otherwise,—this above all else must always be postulated in our account. Now, however, it is the disposition and origin [53c] of each of these Kinds which I must endeavor to explain to you in an exposition of an unusual type; yet, inasmuch as you have some acquaintance with the technical method which I must necessarily employ in my exposition, you will follow me.

    [53c fin.] In the first place, then, it is plain I presume to everyone that fire and earth and water and air are solid bodies; and the form of a body, in every case, possesses depth also. Further, it is absolutely necessary that depth should be bounded by a plane surface; and the rectilinear plane is composed of triangles. [53d] Now all triangles derive their origin from two triangles, each having one angle right and the others acute; and the one of these triangles has on each side half a right angle marked off by equal sides, while the other has the right angle divided into unequal parts by unequal sides. These we lay down as the principles of fire and all the other bodies, proceeding according to a method in which the probable is combined with the necessary; but the principles which are still higher than these are known only to God and the man who is dear to God."

    Quote from Bryan

    I wanted to highlight this section:

    "God began by first marking them out into shapes by means of forms and numbers.

    As to posts like this one I don't think the reaction icons do justice. Maybe the thank you is best so that's what I will use but I do think enthusiastically that all these issues need to be drawn out!

    I think that part of Plato's argument is that the simplest possible plane is a triangle: therefore, this shape is properly considered the most basic building block for extending into three-dimensional space. Before we go 3D, Plato starts with a 30-60-90 triangle and -- from six of those -- and builds an equilateral triangle.

    [54d] "In the next place we have to explain the form in which each Kind has come to exist and the numbers from which it is compounded. First will come that form which is primary and has the smallest components, and the element thereof is that triangle which has its hypotenuse twice as long as its lesser side. And when a pair of such triangles are joined along the line of the hypotenuse, and this is done thrice, by drawing the hypotenuses [54e] and the short sides together as to a center, there is produced from those triangles, six in number, one equilateral triangle."

    Plato takes four of these groupings of six to form the tetrahedron:

    "And when four equilateral triangles are combined so that three plane angles [55a] meet in a point, they form one solid angle, which comes next in order to the most obtuse of the plane angles. And when four such angles are produced, the first solid figure is constructed, which divides the whole of the circumscribed sphere into equal and similar parts."

    Plato takes 120 of the 30-60-90 triangles to form the icosahedron (twenty of these groupings of six):

    "[55b] And the third solid is composed of twice sixty of the elemental triangles conjoined, and of twelve solid angles, each contained by five plane equilateral triangles, and it has, by its production, twenty equilateral triangular bases."

    In support of Timaeus being the views of Plato himself, we also have Diogenes Laertius, "His [i.e., Plato's] own views are expounded by four persons, Socrates, Timaeus, the Athenian Stranger, the Eleatic Stranger.... for, even when Socrates and Timaeus are the speakers, it is Plato's doctrines that are laid down." (3.52)

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