Posts by Bryan

I am not aware of the term in ancient literature. However, let me include this section from Epicurus' On Nature, Book 25, which seems to be related to the idea:

"…[1] Those movements that have been fully generated are fully produced according to the penetration of certain particles, and [2] those other movements are produced according to the proximity of particles, and also in some way [3] that movement which is not being raised up by nature, but produced by one’s spirit comprehending the memory and inductive consideration of its fulfillment in itself, more or less.

…of those movements that result according to the crowded-together atoms, but even the crowded-together atoms clearly move similarly. For they had a nature to fully generate such things and to begin such a task, the same atoms in accordance with a way arising from the same separation…

…one’s own actions are generated in the previously mentioned way, existing as productive of the same things. Yet, although they have a nature that could be productive of these and those achievements, many actions that people generate are made unproductive because of themselves – not through the same cause of movement of both the atoms and themselves. Against these unproductive generated actions we especially contend and rebuke, while resenting those who have a temperament from their birth in accordance with a disturbing nature – just as we do in the case of all living beings that choose to act counterproductively.

…we are contending with many people simultaneously and instructing about this issue, which is contrary to the cause of the same way of thinking that all motion is in accordance with necessity. Thus, whenever something is fully generated, [i.e., one’s consciousness], that comprehends a certain difference in the atoms in a certain mentally distinguishing way, but not as though from a different separation in space, [i.e., even though the soul can be distinguished from the atoms that compose it as its own emergent object, the soul is not physically distinct from the atoms that compose it.] one gains control of the cause of mental movements out of his own conscious choice. Then he simply delivers those conscious mental movements up to the primary natures of the atoms, and he makes this mentally generated movement entirely a standard that tests for truth.

…we praise others not merely through a cause of movement that originates out of themselves, but through that cause of movement that originates out of themselves toward the best tasks and mental perceptions. At this time, we contend with them in no way. But for us, along with… of atoms… to those that have applied themselves. And even while we are fully clearing out the cause of movement that originates out of ourselves… or not instructing about as many things as simultaneously…

…however one refers to his self-generated movement, it is clear it exists with a nature that is fully indicated by his experience of it – even while it is not referred to as itself or according to itself…

…according to our mental perception, our primary composition would – not out of necessity – force out some of the movement that has been fully generated up to the point of certain kinds of such a thing as our own non-necessitated movements being fully generated, while our primary atomic composition would force out some movement up to the point of a soul being produced – and even a soul having an arrangement and movement as great as this, given that some movement of this kind is necessarily generated from a composition such as this [i.e., the soul's subtle physical nature makes it susceptible to both moving and being moved].

But one’s atomic composition would force out some movement up to the point of movement such as this – specifically, the movement of this or that kind of soul – being fully generated not out of necessity. Or at least one’s atomic composition would force out some volitional movement whenever someone advances to the stage of life of such volitional initiations being fully generated not according to necessity, but by having the force of movement from himself and from his own cause…

…regarding those who sincerely struggle to move themselves toward the best tasks, we do not contend with those people, and they are not holding onto laziness. But neither do we venture to encourage or provoke them toward the most opportune things, as their temperaments have already coagulated from a nature which itself is poorly assembled, and which is not fastening and igniting the cause of movement for something in a different way to the coagulation of their temperaments, which is similar to… Although we are bringing forward the cause,[ i.e., the responsibility for our own movement], we do bring it forward for as many as…"

Odd synchronicity for the article and your comment, which both also occurred today! I was unaware.

Here are both versions for ease of direct comparison. My guess is that either Cicero alone is correct, or Diogenes is also correct and multiple letters were sent out.

Yes, thank you! This is new to me.. but, now that it is actually accessible, hopefully we all can dig in!

The section titles in the text are unlikely to have been placed by Lucretius, but are ancient·

The three manuscripts that De Rerum Natura is based on are Codex Oblongus (from the early 800s CE), Codex Quadratus (from the mid-800s CE), and the partial Codex Gottorpienses (from the late 800s CE -- of which less than half is preserved)·

Oblongus is the source for the titles, and contains 182 titles· The titles in Gottorpienses, in the sections that survive, agree with Oblongus (allowing for some errors)·

Quadratus does have spaces in its text in the same locations as the titles of Oblongus, but only ten of these spaces actually contain the titles·

This suggests that the titles were present in the lost manuscript that was used to create all three surviving manuscripts· The occasional use of Greek for the titles suggests they came from an edition that was created sometime before the 400's CE, (probably as early as the 100's CE)·

I think Dewitt was focusing on ἡ χάρις (grace) for this.... and even here the alpha privative (i.e., ungrateful) shows itself to be important to Epicurus' thought.

Great episode -- it’s nice to have Cicero fighting with us, to some degree, against the Stoics.

Thank you both for your encouraging words!

Thank you for this helpful input!

Black pages are my intention, and I am happy that this now seems to be the default.

I do my work with black pages, and I really think that is best way to view it.

Don , Godfrey
Thank you very much!

I have a quick technical question for you both... when you open the document, does it have a black background, or is the page mostly white?

Hello all, this should be the final update until we get to Book Two.

(There are some spacing issues that will not be resolved until all the books are complete.)

Epicurus encouraged the avoidance of paideia, but this clearly did not mean the avoidance of “learning in general.” He expected people to read, understand grammar, grasp the basics of physics, and think carefully about epistemology. He accepts all useful learning, but rejects becoming a "professional" in any one field.

"Both those around Epicurus and those around Pyrrho seem more commonly inclined to the opposition toward those from the professions. Those around Epicurus [oppose the professions, on the grounds] that the professions contribute nothing to the perfection of wisdom "
_{Sextus Empiricus (fl.c. 200 CE), Against the Grammarians, 1-3}

It seems that Epicurus even wrote a letter giving advice to people who were caught in a profession.

"Seneca to his Lucilius, greetings.

You now understand that you must be led out of those flashy and harmful occupations, but you ask how you might achieve that... so look around for this – if you see this, grab it with full force and all your strength: strive to strip yourself from those duties... Read the letter of Epicurus that pertains to this very issue, the one addressed to Idomeneus, whom Epicurus urges to flee as much as he can and to hurry, before some greater force intervenes and takes away the freedom to withdraw.

He nevertheless adds that nothing should be attempted unless it can be done suitably and at the right time. But when that long-awaited time finally comes, he says one must leap out. He forbids the one thinking about flight to fall asleep, and he hopes for a saving exit even from the most difficult things, if only we do not rush before the right time, nor delay at the right time."
_{Seneca (fl. 35 CE), Letters to Lucilius, Letter 22, sections 1-5}

The Diogenes referenced there is Diogenes of Tarsus. We know he wrote "Selections (Ἐπιλέκτα)," as well as an "Epitome of Epicurus' Ethical Doctrines."

The two words in question are closely related:

ἡ ἀγωγή = “conduct,” “training,” “discipline,” “method/practice,” literally “a leading.”

ἡ διαγωγή = “way of life,” “mode of living,” “manner of spending one’s life” literally “a leading through.”

So this could be anything from "conduct is way of life" to "practice is a mode of living," to "education is recreation." ἡ ἀγωγή can mean "education" but only in context, and the typical word for "education" is ἡ παιδεία.

Here are some other potentially related quotes (education in each case is ἡ παιδεία):

"[Epicurus is said] to write in a letter to Pythocles 'Avoid all education, blessed one – after taking up a little boat!'" _{^{Diogenes Laertius (fl.c. 220 CE), 10.6}}

I shall recall the most truth-loving Epicurus: who, though he was uninitiated in general education – he considered those people blessed who were proceeding toward philosophy similarly to himself ¬ uttering such words: 'I bless you, O dear one, because – clear of all education – You have rushed toward philosophy!'" _{Athenaeus (fl.c. 200 CE), Deipnosophists, 13.53}

"Natural science makes men who are neither boasters, nor productive of discourse, nor showing themselves to be involved in the education that is much-contested among the public ¬ but rather serious and also self-sufficient in their own particular goods – while not greatly considering things among the [current] situations" _{Epicurus, VS 45}

"Through the writings of Epicurus all men and all women beg and plead with Pythocles – so that he does not desire the so-called "liberal" education _{^{Plutarch (fl. 80 CE), Non Posse, 1094D, 12 sup.}}

"Epicurus, although he seems to be bitterly hostile to the Professors; in his book On Gifts and Gratitude he definitely tries to prove that it is necessary for the wise to learn grammar. Necessary, as we should say, not for the wise only but for all men." _{Sextus Empiricus (fl.c. 200 CE), Against the Grammarians, 1.49}

Interestingly, in Greek, "school" is the opposite of "occupation"

Possessing power is clearly harmful to the extent that it brings increased stress and dangers. However, possessing power is clearly beneficial to the extent that it can be used to provide security and stability.

ΚΔ 7: "Some people want to become respected and popular, thinking to preserve for themselves stability from people in this way. If the life of those like this is stable: then they fully acquire the good of nature. However, if it is not stable, then they do not possess that which they craved from the beginning according to what is naturally compatible to them."

ΚΔ 14: "...stability from people is produced to some extent by a resistant force and resourcefulness..."

Many people like the idea that the powerful person who harms other people will inevitably come to a bad end.... if not in this life, then at least in the next. But, very often, powerful people are convinced they are living "prudently and correctly and justly" in relation to their group -- and many are able to live a stable and pleasurable life even if there is a trail of victims (from a different group) behind them.

While it is true that "What is just by nature exists as that which is of mutual interest among what mutually benefits in not harming each other and not being harmed. (ΚΔ 31)" Epicurus is clear that this justice is not universally applicable:

ΚΔ 32 "As many among the living beings as do not have the ability to make mutual agreements for themselves (those regarding not harming one another and not being harmed) regarding these things, in no way are they just or unjust, and likewise also as many among the ethnicities as do not have the ability or do not want to make mutual agreements for themselves regarding not harming and not being harmed."

DaveT, I agree. Legal is not the same as just. Many harmful actions can be committed without much fear if the perpetrator has enough power or protection.

Quote from Kalosyni

when every color changes

In this context (DRN 2.749), Lucretius is just explaining that the atoms lack color, and he uses various examples of color shifting on a single object to help make that point.

Quote from Eikadistes

τὸν λάθρα τι κινοῦντα.

Quote from wbernys

τὸν λάθρῃ τι ποιοῦντα

"τὸν λάθρα τι κινοῦντα = the one secretly moving [i.e., doing] something”

vs

"τὸν λάθρῃ τι ποιοῦντα = the one doing something in secret”

Editors use both, they really have the same meaning.

Great point. As a bit of "an exception that proves the rule," we do have:

"[Epicurus] especially approved of Anaxagoras among the ancients, Diocles says ¬ even though in some respects [Epicurus] had opposed [Anaxagoras] – and also [Epicurus approved of] Archelaus, the teacher of Socrates."

^{μάλιστα δ᾽ ἀπεδέχετο, φησὶ Διοκλῆς, τῶν ἀρχαίων Ἀναξαγόραν ¬ καίτοι ἔν τισιν ἀντειρηκὼς αὐτῷ – καὶ Ἀρχέλαον, τὸν Σωκράτους διδάσκαλον Diogenes Laertius (_fl.c. 220 CE), 10.12 fin.}

I always have in mind this quote of Metrodorus (from Plutarch in Non Posse 1091 A):

"This very thing is the good: escaping the bad – because it is not possible for the good to be placed anywhere, when nothing painful or distressing is further withdrawing."

We can review Zeno of Citium's "Analogy of the Closing Hand" for contrast (from Academica 2.145):

1. An open hand represents φαντασία (an appearance)

2. Partially closed fingers represent συγκατάθεσις (assent that the appearance is true)

3. A closed fist represents κατάληψις (thorough comprehension),

4. Finally, the other hand enclosing the fist represents ἐπιστήμη (understanding) – true knowledge, possessed only by the wise.

This is contrasted (Academica 2.142) with "a different judgment exists for Epicurus – who thinks all judgment is established in the senses, in the acquaintance with things, and in pleasure"

Quote from Don

I think it's hiding in other forms within the texts.

Yes, Epicurus uses the verbal form of κατάληψις, for example at 10.78b he says:

^{"καὶ Τοῦτο Καταλαβεῖν τῇ διανοίᾳ ἔστιν ἁπλῶς εἶναι"}
"...and to thoroughly comprehend with the mind that this [reality] exists is absolutely possible."

-----------

10.125a. ^{"Οὐθὲν γάρ ἐστιν ἐν τῷ ζῆνδεινὸν τῷ κατειληφότι γνησίως τὸ μηδὲν ὑπάρχειν ἐν τῷ μὴ ζῆν δεινόν"}

"Nothing is terrible in living for the one who has thoroughly comprehended, in a genuine way, that nothing exists as terrible in not living."

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Philodemus, On Piety, 1.66A.1882-1911 ^{"καὶ καθάπερ κἀν τῷ δευτέρῳ καὶ τριακοστῷ, καὶ τῶν θεῶν Ἐναργείαι, Φησὶν, καταλαμβάνεσθαι τὸ ὄν"}

"and just as in the Second-and-Thirtieth [book 32 On Nature, Epicurus] says, the evident Realities of the gods are thoroughly comprehended as existing"

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Interestingly we have both prefixes in "προ-κατα-λαμβάνειν," which is best read as intensifying προ-λαμβάνειν (thus meaning "thoroughly anticipated" and not "comprehended")

VS 47 ^{"Προκατείλημμαί σε – ὦ Τύχη!"}

"I have thoroughly anticipated you – O Chance!"

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Quote from Don

Do you have the citations/references for those? I'm curious to check them out.

thank you for the question! I prefer when the answer rests in On Nature... but here we are On Lives only!

1.ὁ ᾠκειωμένος

^{10.37a. "ὅθεν, δὴ πᾶσι χρησίμης οὔσης τοῖς ᾠκειωμένοις φυσιολογίᾳ τῆς τοιαύτης ὁδοῦ..."}
...therefore, certainly since such a course is useful to all who are familiar with natural science...

2. ὁ προβεβηκώς
^{10.35b. "...καὶ Τοὺς προβεβηκότας δὲ ἱκανῶς ἐν τῇ τῶν ὅλων ἐπιβλέψει, τὸν τύπον τῆς ὅλης πραγματείας τὸν κατεστοιχειωμένον δεῖ μνημονεύειν..."}

...and Those who have advanced sufficiently in the observation of the whole, must remember the impression of the whole work that has been reduced [to the fundamentals]...

3. ὁ ἀποτελούμενος
^{10.83b. "...Ὅσοι δὲ μὴ παντελῶς τῶν ἀποτελουμένων εἰσίν: ἐκ τούτων καὶ κατὰ τὸν ἄνευ φθόγγων τρόπον..."}

...but Those who are not absolutely among those who are fully completing: from these things and in this way without [verbal] expressions...

4. ὁ τετελεσιουργημένος...
^{10.36b. ...ἐπεὶ καὶ, τῷ τετελεσιουργημένῳ, τοῦτο Κυριώτατον τοῦ παντὸς ἀκριβώματος γίνεται: τὸ ταῖς ἐπιβολαῖς ὀξέως δύνασθαι χρῆσθαι ἑκάστων πρὸς ἁπλᾶ στοιχειώματα καὶ φωνὰς συναγομένων...}

"...since, for the one who is accomplished, this is the most important Thing produced by total accuracy: to be able to quickly use [our] attentions with each thing referenced by simple component principles and statements..."

5. ὁ σοφός... οἶσθα!