Confidence in Katastematic Pleasure

    Quote from Kalosyni
    Quote from Don

    Hence, since such a course is of service to all who take up natural science, I, who devote to the subject my continuous energy and reap the calm enjoyment of a life like this" ~ Epicurus,

    So sounds like "calmness" coming through the practice of studying natural science?

    And at the end of the letter to Herodotus, Epicurus writes:

    "It is of such a sort that those who are already tolerably, or even perfectly, well acquainted with the details can, by analysis of what they know into such elementary perceptions as these, best prosecute their researches in physical science as a whole ; while those, on the other hand, who are not altogether entitled to rank as mature students can in silent fashion and as quick as thought run over the doctrines most important for their peace of mind (γαληνισμὸν galenismon - related to the same word he uses to describe his own calm coming from the study of nature)."

    Quote from Don

    Metrodorus stresses the importance of both kinds of pleasures, but he also wrote a book entitled "On the Source of Happiness in Ourselves being greater than that which arises from Objects."

    Hi, Don!

    I think I have another possible interpretation of Metrodorus' book title. This is the idea: who is "ourselves" referring to? The first and obvious interpretation is "each one of us, internally". Another possible interpretation is "us, as a community of epicurean friends".

    What I mean is that we can derive two very different ideas from the title of the book. The first one is, I think, in some sense ascetic, or individualistic: "I can be happy and have pleasure by myself. I don't need the objects around me" (I'm exaggerating for clearness). The second one is more social: "the greatest pleasures are not in wine, banquets, money, etc. The greatest pleasures are in ourselves, people, in the moments we have in our community with our friends".

    All this depends, of course, on the ambiguity of the "ourselves" in English, so if it doesn't exist in Greek, just ignore my comment 😅


    In any case, my own opinion about katastematic pleasures is that I think they don't derive from epicurean physics, so the only reason we can have to defend them must be a practical reason. So, if we accept the distinction between kinetic and katastematic pleasures, it must be because is useful for having a joyful life.

    I haven't decided if this is going to be useful or not, but I went through Diogenes Laertius, Book 10, and pulled out the times that ataraxia (or a form of the word) shows up:

    Epicurus, Letter to Herodotus:

    [80] we must not suppose that our treatment of these matters fails of accuracy, so far as it is needful to ensure our tranquillity and happiness*. When, therefore, we investigate the causes of celestial and atmospheric phenomena, as of all that is unknown, we must take into account the variety of ways in which analogous occurrences happen within our experience ; while as for those who do not recognize the difference between what is or comes about from a single cause and that which may be the effect of any one of several causes, overlooking the fact that the objects are only seen at a distance, and are moreover ignorant of the conditions that render, or do not render, peace of mind** impossible --all such persons we must treat with contempt. If then we think that an event could happen in one or other particular way out of several, ***we shall be as tranquil*** when we recognize that it actually comes about in more ways than one as if we knew that it happens in this particular way.


    *τὸ ἀτάραχον καὶ μακάριον (to atarakhon (&) makarion): atarakhon is a form of the word ataraxia; makarion is the word used to describe the blessedness of the gods.

    **ἀταρακτῆσαι ataraktesai

    **ἀταρακτήσομεν ataraktesomen "we shall be tranquil"


    [82] But mental tranquillity* means being released from all these troubles and cherishing a continual remembrance of the highest and most important truths.

    *ἀταραξία ataraxia (literally spelled ataraksia)


    Epicurus, Letter to Pythocles:

    [85] In the first place, remember that, like everything else, knowledge of celestial phenomena, whether taken along with other things or in isolation, has no other end in view than peace of mind* and firm conviction.

    *ἀταραξίαν ataraxian/ataraksian


    [96] if you fight against clear evidence, you never can enjoy genuine peace of mind*.

    * ἀταραξίας ataraxias/ataraksias


    Diogenes Laertius, X.128:

    [128] He who has a clear and certain understanding of these things will direct every preference and aversion toward securing health of body and *tranquillity of mind*, seeing that this is the sum and end of a blessed life.

    * τὴν τῆς ψυχῆς ἀταραξίαν ten tes psykhes ataraxian/ataraksian


    Diogenes Laertius, X.136:

    The words of Epicurus in his work On Choice are : "*Peace of mind* and freedom from pain are pleasures which imply a state of rest ; joy and delight are seen to consist in motion and activity."

    ὁ δ᾽ Ἐπίκουρος ἐν τῷ Περὶ αἱρέσεων οὕτω λέγει: "ἡ μὲν γὰρ *ἀταραξία* καὶ ἀπονία καταστηματικαί εἰσιν ἡδοναί: ἡ δὲ χαρὰ καὶ ἡ εὐφροσύνη κατὰ κίνησιν ἐνεργείᾳ βλέπονται."


    PD17:

    17. The just man enjoys the *greatest peace of mind*, while the unjust is full of the utmost **disquietude**.

    Ὁ δίκαιος *ἀταρακτότατος*, ὁ δ᾽ ἄδικος πλείστης **ταραχῆς** γέμων.

    *ἀταρακτότατος ataraktotatos

    Compare **ταραχῆς** tarakhes (the latter part of a + taraksia "not + disquietude")


    I would add to this the two forms of γαλήνιος "calm" shows up as well.

    I think you raise a very interesting interpretation. As you said, it depends on the Greek. So, let's see what we can find:

    On the Source of Happiness in Ourselves being greater than that which arises from Objects

    Περι του μειζονα ειναι την παρ' ημας αιτιαν προς ευδαιμονιαν της εκ των πραγματων αγαθον

    Let's break this down...which I should have done at the beginning! I should know better than to take any translation at face value.

    Περι just introduces the book title like "On.." "About..." "Concerning..."

    μειζονα is the "greater, larger"

    την παρ' ημας αιτιαν has an embedded phrase is something like "the cause for us"

    The "in Ourselves" in the original translation appears to come from παρ' ημας appears to be stock phrase in the language meaning “resulting from us"

    ημας is the accusative of ἡμεῖς (hēmeîs): us (1st person plural)

    προς ευδαιμονιαν toward happiness (lit. eudaimonia)

    της εκ των πραγματων αγαθον that which is good from things (pragmaton)

    πρᾶγμᾰ (prâgma) n (genitive πρᾱ́γμᾰτος); third declension

    • deed, act, fact
    • occurrence, matter, affair
    • thing
    • (in the plural) circumstances, affairs

    So, I'm not sure that solves the question, but there's some information to add to the discussion.

    Another translation now could be "Concerning that cause resulting from us that leads to eudaimonia is greater than that which is good from things." Clunky, I know, but as literal as I can make it.

    PS. My main hesitation in ascribing a community meaning to "resulting from ourselves" is that the quote from the book describes an internal state: "What else is the good of the soul but the sound state of the flesh, and the sure hope of its continuance?"

    Quote from Don

    [82] But mental tranquillity* means being released from all these troubles and cherishing a continual remembrance of the highest and most important truths.

    *ἀταραξία ataraxia (literally spelled ataraksia)

    This reads to me like a definition.... :/

    I just realized there's this epitaph of Epicurus from Atheneaus quoted by Diogenes Laertius:


    And here is the epigram20 in which Athenaeus eulogizes him :

    [12] Ye toil, O men, for paltry things and incessantly begin strife and war for gain ;

    but nature's wealth extends to a moderate bound, whereas vain judgements have a limitless range.

    This message Neocles' wise son heard from the Muses or from the sacred tripod at Delphi.21


    [12] ἄνθρωποι, μοχθεῖτε τὰ χείρονα, καὶ διὰ κέρδος ἄπληστοι νεικέων ἄρχετε καὶ πολέμων:

    τᾶς φύσιος δ᾽ ὁ πλοῦτος ὅρον τινὰ βαιὸν ἐπίσχει, αἱ δὲ κεναὶ κρίσιες τὰν ἀπέραντον ὁδόν.

    τοῦτο Νεοκλῆος πινυτὸν τέκος ἢ παρὰ Μουσέων ἔκλυεν ἢ Πυθοῦς ἐξ ἱερῶν τριπόδων.


    20 Anthology of Planudes. iv. 43.


    This text mentions "nature's wealth extends to a moderate bound, whereas vain judgements have a limitless range" but the same wording is not used as in the PD itself. However, in light of this, I can see how the PD is translated with "limited". That said, I'm not 100% convinced that "the best of its kind" can't be correct. I'm less sure than I was, but not entirely dissuaded.

    Quote from Don

    [82] But mental tranquillity* means being released from all these troubles and cherishing a continual remembrance of the highest and most important truths.

    *ἀταραξία ataraxia (literally spelled ataraksia)

    Quote from Godfrey

    This reads to me like a definition.... :/


    Yes! And I think that this is very important. Because the "tranquility" within Epicureanism is a state of mind which is free from worry. It is not a state of the body (sitting in stillness). And it is not a state of mind which comes from doing something like Buddhist or Hindu meditations. Rather it comes from studying nature and reasoning out issues such as the nature of the natural world, the nature of god(s), the nature of death, using proper choices and avoidances, being confident in future health and security, being confident in support from friends and good neighbors, and self-sufficency.


    So that when we do talk about "tranquility" within Epicureanism, it is a result caused by the mind's ability to impliment and reason through all the things I listed in the above paragraph. We would never say: let's concentrate hard to create some tranquility (that would be putting the cart before the horse) but instead we would simply focus on doing what needs to be done to remove worries from the mind (which may entail making some choices and taking action).

    Quote from Kalosyni

    "tranquility" within Epicureanism is a state of mind which is free from worry.

    Agreed.

    Quote from Kalosyni

    It is not a state of the body (sitting in stillness). And it is not a state of mind which comes from doing something like Buddhist or Hindu meditations.

    Agreed. I would still say that the faculty, state, condition can be strengthened (so to speak) to serve as the foundation for living a pleasurable life.

    Quote from Kalosyni

    it comes from studying nature and reasoning out issues such as the nature of the natural world, the nature of god(s), the nature of death, using proper choices and avoidances, being confident in future health and security, being confident in support from friends and good neighbors, and self-sufficency.

    Agreed And I would say the strengthening of the confidence of ataraxia comes from the continuing study (meditation) of nature etc

    Quote from Kalosyni

    So that when we do talk about "tranquility" within Epicureanism, it is a result caused by the mind's ability to impliment and reason through all the things I listed in the above paragraph.

    Agreed. But tranquility and calm mean tranquility and calm. The metaphor I'd use for it (which seems to be a connotation of the Greek) is like sailing on smooth, tranquil water.

    Quote from Kalosyni

    We would never say: let's concentrate hard to create some tranquility (that would be putting the cart before the horse) but instead we would simply focus on doing what needs to be done to remove worries from the mind (which may entail making some choices and taking action).

    Agreed, I think. There is concentration involved and contemplation and theorizing and putting that contemplation into action. I still translate the wise one's characteristic as "taking more pleasure in contemplation."