Complexity, Contradictions, and "Testing Out" Epicurean Philosophy

In regard to this part I think you are part-way to answering your own question:

In the last two years especially, there has been more focus on the forum and in the podcast to gain a deeper context of Epicurean philosophy through study of other textual sources such as Cicero, etc. This newer material might be of interest for the more advanced student. However, for myself, I feel that at times it can begin to cloud up or muddy up the big picture with all the additional layers of contrast between Cicero, Plato, Aristotle, the Stoics, etc. Also, it seems clearer to me now that there are certain interpretive differences that keep occurring. These are due to some subtle contradictions between the Letter to Menoeceus and the Principal Doctrines/Vatican Sayings. This can bring in a feeling of a lack of clarity. The only way to deal with this is to “try it out” or test it.

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I do not believe that there is any cloudiness or subtle contradictions or lack of clarity inherent in the text of the Letter to Menoeceus or the Principal Doctrines/Vatican sayings. That some people believe they are seeing such things is explainable by exactly what you mention. They do not have in their minds the context of the other textual sources and especially the debates about pleasure that were well known to the ancient Greek philosophers but not to us today. If you don't know the argument that pleasure cannot be the highest good because it is a "process" or "not complete" or is "becoming rather than being." then you're likely to misinterpret references to that issue, thinking that Epicurus has some totally different meaning in mind.

And unfortunately "trying it out" is impossible if you don't know what "it" is. If someone were to infer that "absence of pain" means meditation, for example, and they thought that by meditation they could "try out" Epicurean philosophy, they may find meditation pleasurable but they be not a step further in understanding Epicurus.

The average person living today who picks up the letter to Menoeceus or the Principal Doctrines cannot understand some of its more important aspects unless they take the time to learn why Epicurus was addressing "the limit of pleasure" or "absence of pain" in the first place.

This part of what you wrote is definitely true: Also, it seems clearer to me now that there are certain interpretive differences that keep occurring

There absolutely are many interpretative differences, and almost every commentator has a different take on the issues to which you are refer. From the very beginning you need to know that, as DeWitt says in the first paragraph of the first chapter of his book, Epicurus is at the same time one of the most loved and hated philosophers in history. Everyone needs to realize going in that they are going to have to make up their own minds about what Epicurus was really teaching, and that takes time and familiarity with the subject to achieve.

Quote from Cassius

In the last two years especially, there has been more focus on the forum and in the podcast to gain a deeper context of Epicurean philosophy through study of other textual sources such as Cicero, etc. This newer material might be of interest for the more advanced student.

Quote from Cassius

Everyone needs to realize going in that they are going to have to make up their own minds about what Epicurus was really teaching, and that takes time and familiarity with the subject to achieve.

Yes. And yes to both comments above. I can’t avoid using my decades of training and experience as an attorney when I read or study a topic. As an advocate, I needed to parse not only the words but the motivations, and first-hand knowledge of every client and then every witness. We called that combination of evaluations testing credibility. So when I read the first-hand (as far as we know) writings of Epicurus in the Principal Doctrines and the Letters to his followers, I give those the most credibility compared to other sources. Sure, it is possible that someone has mistranslated or changed the words; even so, the original has more credibility than other sources.

For instance, the Letters of Epicurus’ successors, or Cicero (to a degree), or even Lucretius or Diogenes (both of them) repeat what they know of Epicurus’ teachings, but to me they already are second-hand. Even though they purport to support Epicurus, they are not as good as the original words we’ve verified are his words. I’m really intense about questioning the Vatican Sayings, by the way. And I guess I’d include the modern commentary writers from DeWitt, up to the very latest of the scholars who interpret and comment. I won’t say they are wrong, but I’m not accepting what they say to be the best explanation.

As far as the critics of Epicurus are concerned , their credibility is no higher than his supporters. I believe it is worth learning about what they say to some degree. Yet to me, that can get so deep in the woods that it becomes a miasma of distraction.

If the other less credible sources are clearly in agreement with the original writings, then no problem exists for me. If there is a question about the specific meaning of words, then I’m going to lean toward the original first. And if there is more information about the teachings in the non-original sources than in the originals, I’m very careful and willing to withhold total belief.

As far as conflicts in the original documents, like the Principal Doctrines versus the Letters, that doesn’t bother me too much because anyone who writes frequently on a subject can write inconsistencies in their pronouncements if we look hard enough. It is only human.

I would like to see us discuss the historical periods more often as crucial backgrounding for the teachings. Anxiety filled Greece during Epicurus’ writing life because of Alexander the Great’s death. And I think we can all see, anxiety was a principal target of his pleasure-pain principle. I’d like to discuss the dates Epicurus wrote the originals we have. I think that information could be helpful for us to resolve any possible inconsistencies among his writings, since everyone can further develop their ideas over time and say things slightly differently.

Quote from DaveT

above. I can’t avoid using my decades of training and experience as an attorney when I read or study a topic. As an advocate, I needed to parse not only the words but the motivations, and first-hand knowledge of every client and then every witness. We called that combination of evaluations testing credibility.

DaveT Thanks for providing this insight into your perspective when you review and reply to posts and comments on various documents. I do find it helpful to gain background. Due to my innate curiosity and GaTech training as an engineer, I too have to examine the range of issues that might have caused a problem in some company’s business, or consider future impacts. So reading the background material is helpful.

Also, because my work focused on solving customer problems, I was always looking at the implementation, application side of any solution. So, with the Epicurean teachings I want to learn also how to best apply the Epicurean principles.

Cassius As you & team pursue more background material from 3rd century BCE, I would also like to see how Epicurean principles as ‘medicine for the mind’ were applied along with existing medical practices.

When I visited Athens a couple years ago, our guide around the Acropolis, talked about the Asclepieion of Athens.

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The Asclepieion of Athens was the sanctuary built in honour of the gods Asclepius and Hygieia, located west of the Theatre of Dionysos and east of the Pelargikon wall on the southern escarpment of the Acropolis hill.^[1]

However. Dr. Christos_Yapijakis included some info of that era on healing methods in his research paper, “Ancestral Concepts of Human Genetics and Molecular Medicine in Epicurean Philosophy”.

Could any of the applications of Epicurean principles as ‘medicine for the mind’ be part of future discussions on this forum?

Quote from Patrikios

However. Dr. Christos_Yapijakis included some info of that era on healing methods in his research paper, “Ancestral Concepts of Human Genetics and Molecular Medicine in Epicurean Philosophy”. Could any of the applications of Epicurean principles as ‘medicine for the mind’ be part of future discussions on this forum?

In addition to what Kalosyni said, Patrikios do you recall specifics from this paper or have a link to it so we can pull specific points and consider them?