Epicurus And Homer's Odyssey

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    What would Epicurus have said about Homer's Odyssey? At some point in ancient Greece it was popularly taught amongst the people, and perhaps even in early philosophy schools (though no clear evidence during the time of Epicurus).

    Here we are in 2026 and there is a new Odyssey movie that is opening, and I'm guessing that now there will be increased interest in ancient Greece, because movies tend to greatly influence American culture.

    Here are links to an old version made for TV movie, in two parts:

    An interesting article explores the possibility of how the story came to to be, since the myths were not originally written down.

    Many Homers, One Epic Tradition: Rethinking the Origins of the Iliad and the Odyssey
    For over two millennia, readers of the Iliad and the Odyssey have imagined a single, blind poet called Homer singing the deeds of the great heroes of the…
    cambridgeblog.org

    And you can check out a wikipedia about the gods in the Odyssey:

    Gods in The Odyssey - Wikipedia

    As for Epicurus, regarding the nature of the gods, some excerpts from the Letter to Menoeceus:

    "First of all believe that god is a being immortal and blessed, even as the common idea of a god is engraved on men’s minds, and do not assign to him anything alien to his immortality or ill-suited to his blessedness: but believe about him everything that can uphold his blessedness and immortality. For gods there are, since the knowledge of them is by clear vision. But they are not such as the many believe them to be: for indeed they do not consistently represent them as they believe them to be. And the impious man is not he who popularly denies the gods of the many, but he who attaches to the gods the beliefs of the many.
    [124] For the statements of the many about the gods are not conceptions derived from sensation, but false suppositions, according to which the greatest misfortunes befall the wicked and the greatest blessings (the good) by the gift of the gods."...

    ...

    [134] "For, indeed, it were better to follow the myths about the gods than to become a slave to the destiny of the natural philosophers: for the former suggests a hope of placating the gods by worship, whereas the latter involves a necessity which knows no placation. As to chance, he does not regard it as a god as most men do (for in a god’s acts there is no disorder), nor as an uncertain cause (of all things) for he does not believe that good and evil are given by chance to man for the framing of a blessed life, but that opportunities for great good and great evil are afforded by it."

  • Post by Bryan (July 16, 2026 at 11:47 AM).

    This post was deleted by the author themselves (July 16, 2026 at 7:42 PM).

  • Cassius July 24, 2026 at 7:29 AM

    Changed the title of the thread from “What would Epicurus have said about Homer's Odyssey?” to “What Did Epicurus Think About Homer's Odyssey?”.

    I have updated this thread title and added Youtube links (into post 1 above) to the TV Miniseries production starring Armand Assante, Isabella Rossellini, Vanessa Williams, and many others.

    We can certainly discuss the differences between this and the new Christopher Nolan version as well, as that too would be interesting.

    But this older version gives us probably a more "standard" version of the story for those of us who have not read Homer in decades - if at all.

    Another issue would be considering Epicurus' view of Homer's writing and plot from Epicurus' view of a character like Odysseus. What aspects of Odysseus' character would Epicurus find admirable, and which not?

    I just finished watching the Miniseries version for the first time and I have a couple of preliminary comments:

    1. This story gives us a lot of material to understand what Epicurus was fighting against in terms of the majority Greek view of the gods and their intervention in human life.
    2. It also gives us a picture of a Greek hero who might have understood that the gods were powerful and needed to be humored to a degree, but who also took whatever steps he could to fight back against their intereference in his life.
    3. Seems like half or more of the story is Odysseus being confronted with goddesses or kings who offered him immortality and a life of relaxed total pleasure, but that Odysseus rejected this time and time again because he loved his home and family more. Rather than calling this attitude "duty over pleasure" I would say it is more fair to say that he chose specific mental pleasures of devotion to his own country and family over other bodily/sensual sensual pleasures that were not particularly his own. And he was choosing them not because the gods told him to -- in fact often in opposition to them - but because he himself chose them. These episodes speak volumes about Greek attitudes toward pleasure -- not that pleasure is to be rejected in general, but that some pleasures are more pleasurable than others. The idea that the Greeks of Epicurus; time would have perceived "tranquility" or "calmness" INSTEAD OF or OVER pleasure as the best way of life is ridiculous.

    Much more likely is that the majority of Greeks and Romans shared Cicero's formulation -- "a life of tranquility crammed full of pleasures."

    Cicero, In defense of Publius Sestius, 10.23: “He {Publius Clodius} praised those most who are said to be above all others the teachers and eulogists of pleasure {the Epicureans}. … He added that these same men were quite right in saying that the wise do everything for their own interests; that no sane man should engage in public affairs; that nothing was preferable to a life of tranquility crammed full of pleasures. But those who said that men should aim at an honorable position, should consult the public interest, should think of duty throughout life not of self-interest, should face danger for their country, receive wounds, welcome death – these he called visionaries and madmen.” Note: Here is a link to Perseus where the Latin and translation of this can be compared. The Latin is: “nihil esse praestabilius otiosa vita, plena et conferta voluptatibus.” See also here for word translations.

  • Cassius July 24, 2026 at 7:46 AM

    Changed the title of the thread from “What Did Epicurus Think About Homer's Odyssey?” to “Epicurus And Homer's Odyssey”.

    Homer’s Odysseus is, first and foremost, a liar. His truth is whatever benefits him.

    Odysseus lies to Polyphemus by calling himself “Nobody,” to Athena with a false Cretan identity, to Eumaeus with an invented life story, to the suitors by posing as a beggar, to Penelope by claiming to be the Cretan Aethon, and to Laertes by pretending to be a stranger named Eperitus.

    With this in mind, it is good to remember that Homer’s Odyssey presents the stories of the Cyclops, Circe, the Underworld, the Sirens, and Scylla and Charybdis not through the poem’s omniscient narrator, but as stories Odysseus himself tells King Alcinous.

    Quote from Bryan

    Homer’s Odysseus is, first and foremost, a liar. His truth is whatever benefits him.

    Yes this is very fascinating to me and the reason that I've never been certain what is really going on here.

    That gets at specifically the issues I want to know about:

    Did the ANCIENT GREEKS see Odysseus as first and foremost a liar? Or did they approve of his willingness to use deception against enemies? I suspect that the Stoics would have disapproved due to their absolutist approach to morality, but they came much later, and I don't know that for a fact as to the Greeks as a whole, who I suspect would not have shared that view. Were the Greeks in general embarrassed by the use of the Trojan horse? I don't get that impression.

    I have this general impression that the ancient Greeks considered Odysseus in general to be a hero. In fact I can't believe I'm writing that that might NOT be the case. Yes, like the gods, subject to making mistakes or being arbitrary and capricious - but still a hero.

    I don't think we can get to the bottom of that without knowing what the ancient authorities had to say about Odysseus. Did they condemn him or praise him or both?

    But the way you phrased that Bryan is key -- did they see him as FIRST AND FOREMOST a liar?

    This below is going to be far from authoritative but the citations give a place to start answering the question: How did the ancient Greeks view Odysseus? Hero, or deceiver? Give me ancient quotations with citations to back up your answer.

    (Chatgpt Search and Result)

    The answer is both. There was never a single ancient Greek consensus about Odysseus.

    In the Homeric epics, especially the Odyssey, Odysseus is one of the greatest Greek heroes. His intelligence (mêtis, "cunning intelligence") is treated as a heroic virtue alongside Achilles' strength.

    By the 5th century BC, however, several tragedians—especially Sophocles and Euripides—reinterpreted exactly those same qualities as dishonesty, manipulation, and moral compromise. Plato likewise treats Odysseus with considerable ambivalence.

    So the ancient evidence shows a long evolution rather than a single view.

    I. Homer: Odysseus as the ideal intelligent hero

    Homer's first description immediately establishes his greatness:

    Quote

    "Tell me, Muse, of the man of many turns (polytropos), who wandered far after he sacked the sacred citadel of Troy."

    — Odyssey 1.1–2

    The adjective polytropos ("many-sided," "resourceful," "versatile") is entirely complimentary here.

    Odysseus himself proudly declares:

    Quote

    "I am Odysseus son of Laertes, known among all mankind for my tricks (doloisin), and my fame reaches heaven."

    — Odyssey 9.19–20

    Notice that he does not apologize for his cleverness. It is presented as part of his glory.

    Athena repeatedly praises his intelligence.

    For example:

    Quote

    "You are the best of all mortals in counsel and speech."

    — Odyssey 13.297–298

    Later she says:

    Quote

    "Who could surpass you in every kind of craft, even if a god wished to contend with you?"

    — Odyssey 13.330–332

    Athena, the goddess of wisdom, is consistently Odysseus' divine patron.

    Even in the Iliad he is admired.

    Agamemnon says:

    Quote

    "No mortal is your equal in counsel."

    — Iliad 10

    Nestor likewise repeatedly relies upon Odysseus whenever difficult judgment is required.

    II. Homer also shows his flaws

    Homer is not blind to Odysseus' faults.

    The most famous example is his boasting to Polyphemus.

    After escaping, he cannot resist revealing his identity:

    Quote

    "Cyclops, if any mortal asks who blinded you, tell him it was Odysseus."

    — Odyssey 9

    This immediately brings Poseidon's curse upon him.

    Thus Homer admires Odysseus but also shows that excessive pride can ruin even the cleverest hero.

    III. Sophocles: Odysseus as the champion of deceit

    By the fifth century BC the picture changes dramatically.

    The opening of Philoctetes is astonishing.

    Odysseus orders Neoptolemus:

    Quote

    "I command you to take Philoctetes by deceit."

    — Sophocles, Philoctetes 101–102

    Neoptolemus is horrified:

    Quote

    "Why by deceit rather than persuasion?"

    — Philoctetes 103

    Odysseus replies that lying is acceptable if it wins the war.

    This is perhaps the clearest surviving ancient portrayal of Odysseus as morally compromised.

    Neoptolemus also declares:

    Quote

    "I would rather fail honorably than succeed dishonorably."

    — Philoctetes 94–95

    Sophocles deliberately contrasts old heroic honor with Odysseus' political realism.

    IV. Sophocles' Ajax

    In Ajax, Odysseus is somewhat more sympathetic.

    Although Ajax hates him, Odysseus eventually argues that Ajax deserves burial despite having been his enemy.

    He says, in effect,

    Quote

    "I hated him while it was right, but now I pity him."

    (Ajax approximately lines 1332 ff.)

    This is one of the noblest speeches in Greek tragedy.

    Thus Sophocles himself gives us two different Odysseuses:

    • political manipulator (Philoctetes)
    • humane statesman (Ajax)

    V. Euripides

    Euripides generally presents Odysseus much more negatively.

    In Hecuba, he appears as an expedient politician willing to sacrifice Polyxena for military necessity.

    He argues essentially:

    Quote

    "The army's interests come first."

    This reinforced the growing image of Odysseus as someone willing to sacrifice justice for success.

    VI. Plato

    Plato is also ambivalent.

    In the Lesser Hippias, Socrates discusses whether the man who lies deliberately is actually superior in knowledge to the one who lies unintentionally.

    Odysseus becomes the central example of the intelligent deceiver.

    Rather than simply condemning him, Plato turns him into a philosophical problem.

    Yet in the Republic (Myth of Er), Plato gives Odysseus an unexpectedly noble ending.

    After all his sufferings:

    Quote

    The soul of Odysseus searched for a long time until it found "the life of a private man who minds his own business," and gladly chose it.

    — Republic 620c–d

    After a lifetime of glory, he finally prefers a quiet life.

    VII. Why both pictures existed

    The Greeks admired two different heroic ideals.

    Achilles

    • courage
    • straightforwardness
    • honor
    • martial excellence

    Odysseus

    • intelligence
    • adaptability
    • persuasion
    • strategy
    • survival

    As Greek politics became increasingly democratic and diplomatic during the fifth century BC, some writers began asking whether clever political intelligence easily becomes manipulation.

    Odysseus naturally became the symbol of that question.


    Overall ancient balance

    AuthorView of Odysseus
    Homer (Odyssey)Great hero whose cunning is admirable
    Homer (Iliad)Wise counselor and indispensable leader
    Sophocles (Ajax)Ultimately generous and humane
    Sophocles (Philoctetes)Master of deception and morally dangerous
    EuripidesFrequently manipulative and politically ruthless
    PlatoBrilliant but morally ambiguous; ultimately wiser through suffering


    As to the Stoics in particular:


    Display Spoiler

    What did the Stoics think about Odysseus?

    The Stoics admired Odysseus far more consistently than did the Epicureans. In fact, Odysseus became one of the Stoics' favorite examples of the wise person confronting adversity. They did not admire him because he won the Trojan War or because he deceived his enemies; they admired him because he endured hardship with intelligence, self-command, and perseverance.

    That said, they did not approve of everything Homer says about him. Several Stoics explicitly reject Homer's portrayal whenever it conflicts with Stoic ethics.

    Here are the principal sources.

    1. Epictetus: Odysseus as the model of resilience

    Epictetus refers to Odysseus dozens of times in the Discourses.

    One of his favorite passages concerns Odysseus after being shipwrecked and meeting Nausicaa.

    He asks:

    Quote

    "When Odysseus was shipwrecked and cast ashore, did he lose heart? No... He trusted not in reputation or riches or office, but in himself—in his judgments about what is in our power and what is not."

    — Epictetus, Discourses 3.26.33–35

    For Epictetus, Odysseus demonstrates that external circumstances cannot harm a truly wise person.

    2. Epictetus rejects Homer's grieving Odysseus

    One fascinating passage shows that Epictetus is willing to criticize Homer himself.

    Homer repeatedly depicts Odysseus weeping for home.

    Epictetus replies:

    Quote

    "Do not believe Homer if he makes Odysseus unhappy."

    Then he continues:

    Quote

    "If Odysseus really wept, what was he but a miserable man? ... To desire what is impossible is foolish."

    — Discourses 3.24

    This is a remarkable statement.

    Epictetus effectively says:

    Quote

    Either Homer is exaggerating...

    or

    Quote

    Odysseus was not acting as a wise man at that moment.

    For Stoicism, philosophy is the standard—not Homer.

    3. Odysseus as the philosophical traveler

    Epictetus also interprets Odysseus' travels allegorically.

    Quoting the opening of the Odyssey,

    Quote

    "He saw the cities of many men and learned their minds."

    Epictetus treats this as the philosopher's ideal:

    travel not merely to see places, but to understand human nature.

    4. Seneca

    Seneca also admired Odysseus, though in a somewhat different way.

    In one letter he dismisses scholarly debates over the geography of Odysseus' voyage:

    Quote

    "We have no time to hear lectures on whether Odysseus wandered between Italy and Sicily or beyond the known world; we ourselves are tossed about by storms every day."

    — Seneca, Letters 88.7

    His point is that the real voyage worth studying is the moral journey through one's own life.

    Elsewhere Seneca interprets Odysseus' desire to return home not as mere homesickness but as fulfilling one's duties to family and country—a characteristically Stoic reinterpretation.

    5. The Stoics and Odysseus' cunning

    Unlike Sophocles' Philoctetes, Stoic writers rarely celebrate Odysseus because he tricks people.

    Instead they praise him because he:

    • remains composed after disaster,
    • adapts to circumstances,
    • refuses despair,
    • acts intelligently,
    • survives without losing his dignity.

    His famous mêtis ("cunning intelligence") becomes, in Stoic hands, practical wisdom rather than deception.

    Listening to the first part of that reminds me that PENELOPE is also using deception to put off the suitors - but of course only an extreme Stoic would fault her for that?

    The role of deception here and how to evaluate it is clearly critical --- and I'd presume that Epicurus would NOT take the position that deception (or any other vice the Stoics would presume to be bad) is "always" bad.

    I know that PD06 has translation issues, but In this discussion of deception both it (especially in Bailey's preferred reading) and other statements about the result being what matters probably has a bearing on Epicurus' attitude toward deception and other actions that some presume to be "always" bad.


    PD06. In order that men might not fear one another, there was a natural benefit to be had from government and kingship, provided that they are able to bring about this result. PD06: The translation given is by Mensch. Formerly we used Eugene O’Connor from “The Essential Epicurus": "Whatever you can provide yourself with to secure protection from men is a natural good.” Bailey: “To secure protection from men anything is a natural good by which you may be able to attain this end.” New Greek Version: “In order to obtain security from other people, there was (always) the natural good of sovereignty and kingship, through which (someone) once could have accomplished this.” This version is up for review given that the Greek for sovereignty and kingship clearly appears in the text but is emended out by Usener and others. See the discussion of PD06 for further detail.

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