Epicurus And Homer's Odyssey

I have updated this thread title and added Youtube links (into post 1 above) to the TV Miniseries production starring Armand Assante, Isabella Rossellini, Vanessa Williams, and many others.

We can certainly discuss the differences between this and the new Christopher Nolan version as well, as that too would be interesting.

But this older version gives us probably a more "standard" version of the story for those of us who have not read Homer in decades - if at all.

Another issue would be considering Epicurus' view of Homer's writing and plot from Epicurus' view of a character like Odysseus. What aspects of Odysseus' character would Epicurus find admirable, and which not?

I just finished watching the Miniseries version for the first time and I have a couple of preliminary comments:

1. This story gives us a lot of material to understand what Epicurus was fighting against in terms of the majority Greek view of the gods and their intervention in human life.
2. It also gives us a picture of a Greek hero who might have understood that the gods were powerful and needed to be humored to a degree, but who also took whatever steps he could to fight back against their intereference in his life.
3. Seems like half or more of the story is Odysseus being confronted with goddesses or kings who offered him immortality and a life of relaxed total pleasure, but that Odysseus rejected this time and time again because he loved his home and family more. Rather than calling this attitude "duty over pleasure" I would say it is more fair to say that he chose specific mental pleasures of devotion to his own country and family over other bodily/sensual sensual pleasures that were not particularly his own. And he was choosing them not because the gods told him to -- in fact often in opposition to them - but because he himself chose them. These episodes speak volumes about Greek attitudes toward pleasure -- not that pleasure is to be rejected in general, but that some pleasures are more pleasurable than others. The idea that the Greeks of Epicurus; time would have perceived "tranquility" or "calmness" INSTEAD OF or OVER pleasure as the best way of life is ridiculous.

Much more likely is that the majority of Greeks and Romans shared Cicero's formulation -- "a life of tranquility crammed full of pleasures."

Cicero, In defense of Publius Sestius, 10.23: “He {Publius Clodius} praised those most who are said to be above all others the teachers and eulogists of pleasure {the Epicureans}. … He added that these same men were quite right in saying that the wise do everything for their own interests; that no sane man should engage in public affairs; that nothing was preferable to a life of tranquility crammed full of pleasures. But those who said that men should aim at an honorable position, should consult the public interest, should think of duty throughout life not of self-interest, should face danger for their country, receive wounds, welcome death – these he called visionaries and madmen.” Note: Here is a link to Perseus where the Latin and translation of this can be compared. The Latin is: “nihil esse praestabilius otiosa vita, plena et conferta voluptatibus.” See also here for word translations.

Homer’s Odysseus is, first and foremost, a liar. His truth is whatever benefits him.

Odysseus lies to Polyphemus by calling himself “Nobody,” to Athena with a false Cretan identity, to Eumaeus with an invented life story, to the suitors by posing as a beggar, to Penelope by claiming to be the Cretan Aethon, and to Laertes by pretending to be a stranger named Eperitus.

With this in mind, it is good to remember that Homer’s Odyssey presents the stories of the Cyclops, Circe, the Underworld, the Sirens, and Scylla and Charybdis not through the poem’s omniscient narrator, but as stories Odysseus himself tells King Alcinous.

Quote from Bryan

Homer’s Odysseus is, first and foremost, a liar. His truth is whatever benefits him.

Yes this is very fascinating to me and the reason that I've never been certain what is really going on here.

That gets at specifically the issues I want to know about:

Did the ANCIENT GREEKS see Odysseus as first and foremost a liar? Or did they approve of his willingness to use deception against enemies? I suspect that the Stoics would have disapproved, but they came much later, and I don't know that for a fact.

I have this general impression that the ancient Greeks considered Odysseus in general to be a hero. In fact I can't believe I'm writing that that might NOT be the case. Yes, like the gods, subject to making mistakes or being arbitrary and capricious - but still a hero.

I don't think we can get to the bottom of that without knowing what the ancient authorities had to say about Odysseus. Did they condemn him or praise him or both?

But the way you phrased that Bryan is key -- did they see him as FIRST AND FOREMOST a liar?