"Prayer" vs "Choice and Avoidance"

My understanding of prayer is pretty much limited to the idea of praying to someone/something that has power to intervene and grant something to someone. In this sense it is similar to talking. However, somewhere along the line I heard someone refer to another way to pray, which is to listen.

This latter version seems to have more validity, and doesn't require any supernatural or imaginary entity to listen to. It's basically a form of meditation: getting quiet and listening to whatever comes up.

Per Lucretius 5:11203+/_: True piety is for a man to have the power To contemplate the world with quiet mind.

Quote from Kalosyni

A main benefit of prayer is the development of a feeling of courage.

I can agree with your statement as a goal of praying. As I think about it, Christians probably pray mostly to ask divine intervention of some sort.

For example John 16:23–24 The New King James Version
"23 And in that day you will ask Me nothing. Most assuredly, I say to you, whatever you ask the Father in My name He will give you. 24 Until now you have asked nothing in My name. Ask, and you will receive, that your joy may be full."

And of course the shared prayer of most all Christians "...give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses..., lead us not into temptation...; deliver us from evil,..."

So, I consider this concept of the divine direction to pray as the primary "no go" distinction with Epicurus' self actualization. As I understand Epicurus, he would not abide by the doctrine of divine grace, and the intercession of the Virgin and the saints (for Catholics at least).

Psychologists, Sociologists, and Archaeologists among others will never be able to pinpoint the cause of the human urge to attribute divine power to control the universe. That urge seems likely to me in most, if not every existing religious belief. And religions no matter the time or era or location will never investigate or dig into a concept that relies upon "Faith" in the unknowable. Nor will they abide in questioning the foundations of their particular faith.

Quote from Kalosyni

since he was a materialist perhaps he did not do any prayer.

Philódēmos records Epíkouros of having written that "it is fitting for us to pray’". In On Piety, he affirms that their opponents observed the Epicureans to share "propitious offerings and sincere and sonorous prayers" to the gods. So, even then, the opponents of Epíkouros, who accuse him of being impious, still document ancient Epicureans to have engaged in "sonorous prayers".

What kind of prayers? At least, whatever was being recited at the local theatron. Since it is not otherwise specified, I imagine they would have used the available prayers, just as they patronized the available civic festivals and available religious rituals provided in Attica. Perhaps a traditional hymn in Athens would have provided familiarity and calm, like our yearly Christmas tunes:

ORPHIC HYMN 15 (TO ZEUS)

Zeus invaluable, Zeus imperishable, here, you see, we [bear]
testimony: you [are] to be reverred, delivering and pre-eminent.
Oh, King — by your lead it was revealed on this account, divine,
Earth, Goddess, Mother, mountains and resounding cliffs,
both sea and all, as high as heaven, positioned within,
Zeus Timekeeper, sceptered, thundering, wild,
All-Generator, beginning of all, and end of all,
Earthquaker, Increaser, Purifyer, All-Shaker,
Flashing, Thundering, Electrifying, Nourishing Zeus;
Hear me, One-of-Changing-Form, permit, then, immaculate health,
and peace, Goddess, and immaculate magnificence of wealth.

Ζεῦ πολυτίμητε, Ζεῦ ἄφθιτε, τήνδε τοι ἡμεῖς
μαρτυρίαν τιθέμεσθα λυτήριον ἠδὲ πρόσευξιν.
ὦ βασιλεῦ, διὰ σὴν κεφαλὴν ἐφάνη τάδε θείᾱς,
γαῖα θεὰ μήτηρ ὀρέουσᾰ θ’ ὑψηχέες ὄχθοι,
καὶ πόντος καὶ πάνθ’, ὁπόσ’ οὐρανὸς ἐντὸς ἔταξε
Ζεῦ Κρόνιε, σκηπτοῦχε, καταιβάτα, ὀμβριμόθυμε,
παντογένεθλ’, ἀρχὴ πάντων, πάντων τε τελευτή,
σεισίχθων, αὐξητά, καθάρσιε, παντοτινάκτα,
ἀστραπαῖε, βρονταῖε, κεραύνιε, φυτάλιε Ζεῦ ·
κλῦθί μευ, αἰολόμορφε, δίδου δ’ ὑγίειαν ἀμεμφῆ
εἰρήνην τε θεὰν καὶ πλούτου δόξαν ἄμεμπτον.

Zeú polytímēte, Zeú áphthite, tḗnde toi ēmeîs
martyrían tithémestha lytḗrion ḗdè próseuxin.
ṓ basileû, dià sḗn kephalēn ephánē táde theías ,
gaîa theà mḗtēr oréousa th’ hypsēkhées ókhthoi,
kaí póntos kaí pánth’, opós’ oúranòs éntos étaxe
Zeú Krónie, skēptoúkhe, kataibáta, ombrimóthyme,
pantogénethl’, árkhē pántōn, pántōn te teleutḗ,
seisíkhthōn, auzēntá, kathársie, pantotinákta,
ástrapaeîe, brontaèe, keraünie, phytálie Zeú;
klythí meu, aìolómorphe, dídou d’ ygíeian ámemphē
eìrḗnēn te theàn kaì ploútou dóxan ámempton.

I'm sure most of us here both reject the narrative of the nativity, while also enjoying a few Christmas songs that were inspired by the celebrations related to the mythic birth of Christ. I have to imagine that Epicureans were the same in their preference for familiar comforts.

The key point is the rejection of intercessory prayer. Usually, we imply "intercessory" in the modern world when we say "prayer" to mean wish-fulfillment. Rather, as he writes in On Lifecourses, we pray "in order that [...] we may realize our fulfilments and social conformity with the laws" (Philódēmos, On Piety). Indeed, "prayers and obeisances and such honours for the gods are fitting".

Philódēmos also reports Epíkouros of having written in On Lifecourses that "to pray in natural for us", so, in the first place, prayer developed organically, like we developed the forms of gods in ancient dreams, so the act of praying precedes the composition of religious hymns. Then, also, there wasn't a great need for an Epicurean founder to craft a prayer that could be privileged by Epicureans as a proper, Epicurean prayer. Any prayer can be an Epicurean prayer so long as the supplicant is not requesting that the object of their reverence perform magic.

...but, in such the event that we needed one, I gave it a shot a while ago:

AN EPICUREAN HYMN TO HĒDONḖ

PLEASURESS Blessed, PLEASURESS Incorruptible, to this, truly, we
are disposed, testimony, both liberating and therepeutic;
Oh, Queen, because of your divine image, the good life was disclosed,
flavor, fragrance, radiance, warmth, oh, Goddess Fruitful,
and the immortal good of friendship, oh, Mother Bountiful;
PLEASURESS of the GARDENS, prudent, principled, peaceable,
All-Mother, Source-of-all, and End-of-all,
Common-to-All, Motivating, Smile-Loving, Nurse of Love,
Faithful, Fearless, Beloved, Nourishing PLEASURESS;
Hear me, LEADERESS: permit, then, immaculate painlessness,
peace, and, Goddess, also, immaculate impassiveness.

Ἡδονή μακαρία Ἡδονή ἀφθαρτε τήνδε τοι ἡμεῖς
μαρτυρίαν τιθέμεσθα λυτήριον ἠδὲ θερᾰπευτικήν·
ὦ βᾰσῐ́λῐσσᾰ διὰ σὴν εἰκόνᾰ θεία ἐφάνη τὸν ᾰ̓γᾰθόν βῐ́ον
γεῦσῐς εὐωδία καλή θέρμη ὦ θεὰ πολῠ́φορβος
καὶ ᾱ̓θανᾰ́τη ᾰ̓γαθή φῐλῐ́ας ὦ μήτηρ καρποφορος·
Ἡδονή ἐν κήποις φρόνιμη καλή δῐκαία
Παντογένεθλ’ ἀρχὴ πάντων πάντων τε τέλᾱ
Ποθεινοτάτη φιλομμειδής ἐρωτοτρόφος Πάνδημον
πῐστή ἄφοβε φῐ́λῐε φυτάλιε Ἡδονή·
κλῦθί μευ ἡγεμόνη δίδου δ’ ᾰ̓τᾰρᾰξῐ́ᾱν ἄμεμπτον
εἰρήνην τε θεὰν καὶ πλούτου ἀπονῐ́ᾱν ἄμεμπτον.

Hēdonḗ makaría, Hēdonḗ áphtharte, tḗnde toi ēmeîs
martyrían tithémestha lūtḗrion ḗdè therapeutiiḗn.
ṓ Basílissa dià sḗn eikóna theía ephánē tòn agathón bíon,
geûsis euōdía kalḗ thérmē, ṓ theà polýphorbos,
kaì athanátē ágathḗ philías ṓ mḗtēr karpophóros.
Hēdonḗ èn Kēpois, Phrónimē, Kalḗ, Dikaía,
pantogénethl’ árkhē pántōn, pántōn te teleutḗ,
Pándēmon Potheinotátē Philommeidḗs Erōtotróphos,
Pistḗ Áphobe Phílie Phytálie Hēdonḗ;
klythí meu Hēgemónē dídou d’ aponían ámempton
eìrḗnēn te theàn kaì ploútou ataraxían ámempton.

And while it isn't explicitly a hymn, or a prayer, I've always liked Usener fragment 469:

"Thanks [to] the blessed nature that has made the necessities obtainable,
but the unobtainable, unnecessary."

χάρις τῇ μακαρίᾳ φύσει ὅτι τὰ ἀναγκαῖα ἐποίησεν εὐπόριστα,
τὰ δὲ δυσπόριστα οὐκ ἀναγκαῖα.

Interesting topic. Thanks for starting this Kalosyni !

I fully agree that the popular notion of the word prayer is "Oh God, I know you're busy but I need a favor." I'm intentionally being flippant, but this idea isn't new. Lucian gave us Icaromenippus, an Aerial Expedition where we read:

Quote

we reached the spot where he was to sit and listen to the prayers. There was a row of openings with lids like well-covers, and a chair of gold by each. Zeus took his seat at the first, lifted off the lid and inclined his ear. From every quarter of Earth were coming the most various and contradictory petitions; for I too bent down my head and listened. Here are specimens. ‘O Zeus, that I might be king!’ ‘O Zeus, that my onions and garlic might thrive!’ ‘Ye Gods, a speedy death for my father!’ Or again, ‘Would that I might succeed to my wife’s property!’ ‘Grant that my plot against my brother be not detected.’ ‘Let me win my suit.’ ‘Give me an Olympic garland.’ Of those at sea, one prayed for a north, another for a south wind; the farmer asked for rain, the fuller for sun. Zeus listened, and gave each prayer careful consideration, but without promising to grant them all;

But there are different forms of prayer, even in Christianity, though some are not as familiar to the general populace. I know that I was probably in my 30s (LOL decades ago now) when I discovered this. Even in the psedo-Pauline epistle 1 Timothy 2:1, the author gives four types of what can be called generally "prayer": supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings (δεήσεις προσευχάς ἐντεύξεις εὐχαριστίας). A Catholic site provides the Four Basic Types of Prayer:

1. Prayer of Blessing and Adoration (praising God)
2. Prayer of Petition (asking for what we need, including forgiveness)
3. Prayer of Intercession (asking for what others need)
4. Prayer of Thanksgiving (for what God has given and done)

I can see 1 (as Eikadisteshas done with Pleasure and Lucretius has done for Epicurus) and 4 being open to Epicurean applications, not so much 2 and 3. 4 especially seems fruitful given Epicurus' emphasis on gratitude for the good things we have and/or had in our lives. They also include Meditative Prayer in that list further down, and that too seems a potential area of exploration: really noticing our experience of our senses and feelings to get a handle on what our bodies and minds are trying to tell us rather than simply busying ourselves scrolling etc as a distraction from ourselves.

That's all for now. More thoughts later.

Oh, in response to Kalosyni 's thread title, "Prayer" vs "Choice and Avoidance", I see choice and rejection (see other threads for my rants on "avoidance" as a translation of φεύγω) as a tactic of Epicurean living practice. Honestly, if we subjected EVERY decision to a decision tree of pros/cons and pleasure/pain, we'd be paralyzed. "Ham sandwich or peanut butter and jelly? Which will give me the most pleasure?" Ideally, practicing choice and rejection should become second nature. Easier said than done!! As an example, I'll admit I like to frame my decision to go to work as a choice, even when I'm tired or frustrated or just REALLY don't want to get out of bed on a cold winter morning. I could quit or not go in, but the pain that would ensue from lost wages, etc., would far outweigh any fleeting pleasure. Therefore, I choose the greater pleasure over time. We need not subject every choice to this tactic, but we should keep it in mind and do it thoughtfully and deliberately when necessary.

Prayer, on the other hand, is a moment of reflection. Taking time from our busy day to reflect, acknowledge gratitude, really feel our connection to our bodies and the natural world. Take a beat. Take a breath.

That would be my take on the connection between "Prayer" and "Choice and Avoidance"