Episode 295 - Plutarch's Absurd Interpretation of Epicurean Absence of Pain

Quote from Rolf

That said, sitting on a sun lounger at a resort sipping piña coladas for the rest of my days sounds absolutely awful and would certainly not leave me content.

Letter to Menoeceus:

[132] "For it is not continuous drinkings and revelings, nor the satisfaction of lusts, nor the enjoyment of fish and other luxuries of the wealthy table, which produce a pleasant life, but sober reasoning, searching out the motives for all choice and avoidance, and banishing mere opinions, to which are due the greatest disturbance of the spirit."

Quote from Rolf

I forget who on here said it, but this reminds me a bit of something along the lines of “the perfect/best life is for the gods”. Us mortals are always going to have to compromise like this, and while we can live like the gods for certain periods, we must expect that pains will arise.

From Diogenes Laertius, "wise man sayings" section:

"They say also that there are two ideas of happiness, complete happiness, such as belongs to a god, which admits of no increase, and the happiness which is concerned with the addition and subtraction of pleasures."

Good quotes, Kalosyni .

It literally just hit me as I read the Menoikeus quote that:

Quote from Letter to Menoeceus

[132] "For it is not continuous drinkings and revelings, nor the satisfaction of lusts, nor the enjoyment of fish and other luxuries of the wealthy table, which produce a pleasant life, but sober reasoning, searching out the motives for all choice and avoidance, and banishing mere opinions, to which are due the greatest disturbance of the spirit."

A pleasant life is produced by sober reasoning etc. Epicurus doesn't tell Menoikeus that the sum total of a pleasant life is sober reasoning etc but that such a life is produced by those things.

From my own commentary on that section:

Rearranging the Greek into a more "English order":

οὐδ᾽ ὅσα πολυτελὴς τράπεζα ἰχθύων καὶ τῶν ἄλλων ἀλλὰ νήφων λογισμὸς φέρει τὸν ἡδὶν γεννᾷ βίον

"and nor does an extravagant table of fish and other things bring forth a sweet life but self-controlled reasoning [does bring forth a sweet life]."

Quote from Cassius

Quote from Rolf

Would you say then Cassius that “the absence of pain being the limit of pleasure” is not something I have to hold in my everyday mind as something practical? It’s more just something for use in philosophical reasoning and debate

I think that having a mental image of the most desirable state is highly practical and even essential and is similar to projecting this as a "godlike life." For that reason I would say that it needs to be held in mind In the same way Epicurus tells Herodotus to keep an outline in mind and to be able to flip back and forth from high level to detail at a moments notice.

And I would also say that the expansive definition of pleasure to include appreciation of all nonpainful life, particularly mental appreciation of the benefits of a true philosophy, is also a daily or even hourly thing.

This isn't just for times of debate.

Rolf thanks for your series of questions to better understand the pleasure/pain concept, and how to apply it.

As you were asking for practical examples, here is how I have been trying to apply this concept on a daily/hourly basis, as Cassius suggested above.

We know that even if we have no physical pains or ongoing mental disturbances, every day life is going to present us with perturbations.
I try to start my day with the “mental appreciation” of the Epicurean framework.

As I review my schedule and any interactions I will have, I try to mentally preview those interactions, as an Epicurean wise man might conduct himself. That helps me set an open-minded view towards those upcoming meetings or planned calls.

Another example to apply these concepts is when I take my daily walk near downtown, with lots of construction these days. Instead of being upset about all the sidewalks along my normal walking routes being closed, I set a mental attitude of choosing the most pleasant street and shady sidewalk, while trying to avoid areas with construction workers. So, holding the Epicurean concept in your mind as you go about an active day can lead to a day with more pleasant than painful experiences.

Do examples as this help you, Rolf ?