What amount of effort should be put into pursuing pleasure or removing pain?

Quote from Kalosyni

Now...what happens if it is a tie?

This is why I don't like the term "hedonic calculus"!

Cassius I'm not clear how to work the copy paste of a quote but I'd like to chime in on your comment: "The pleasures Don lists which can be achieved by "getting out of the way" of them is a valid approach if you are able to maintain those and have confidence in their continuance and your satisfaction with them, but there are also other pleasures that you will never experience if you do not pursue them vigorously."

Yes, I agree with your overall comments, and those other pleasures might be the natural but not necessary pleasures.

I think about the possible foundations of Epicurus' teachings, and then how they might be adopted more widely. I guess he studied the beliefs of other philosophers, and looked around to see how people generally behaved on a daily basis. He must have seen how they tried to live well and avoid the anxiety of daily life. From what I've learned here in Epicurean Friends, his Garden included average people as well as intellectuals.

As I understand it, modern science is disclosing how our brains work, and it's not just a matter of paying attention to the teacher. Some among us can conceptualize to a higher degree, and intellectually discipline ourselves because of their particular brain structure. They are the lucky ones and not the average person. They have that capacity while the majority of people don't have the same ability to focus on the pursuit of higher pleasures. Making a living, raising a family, trying to be comfortable after a busy week takes up the majority of time for most of us, whether highly gifted or not.

So, I tend to appreciate the way Don addressed the more effortless process to pursue a happier life. I don't know how that way of life can be widely adopted unless monotheistic thought is abandoned widely. Thoughts?

Great points and they definitely lead to your final question.

Quote from DaveT

I don't know how that way of life can be widely adopted unless monotheistic thought is abandoned widely. Thoughts?

I believe that you are right and the Epicurean way of life can't be widely adopted in many parts of the world - the prevalence of monotheistic influence, including in the morality of "humanism" which has much the same basis, is a huge obstacle.

Certainly monotheistic religion is not going to be abandoned overnight, but on the other hand there was a time when it played little role in Western civilization, so it's not inevitable that it remain so powerful.

Epicurus didn't have to confront the type that we confront today, but I agree with Nietzsche that Epicurus was already combating a form of monotheism as it existed in the Greco-Roman world at his time. What we face today is a much more powerful and oppressive form than what Epicurus faced.

But if Epicurus was right - as I think he was - there is no fate or necessity that prevents change from happening. We live in a time when at least for now information is more widely accessible than ever, and that opens up possibilities that never before existed.

Epicurean philosophy provides a foundation from which people in the future can build further to overcome these problems, and even now in the present I personally get a lot of satisfaction and pleasure out of thinking that we can do a small part to re-educate the world to the Epicurean alternative.

No doubt we know only the famous ones, but every example of a devoted Epicurean in the ancient world seems to have been a campaigner for the views that they adopted from Epicurus. That's really the core mission of Epicureanfriends.com, to campaign on these ideas, even as we also help ourselves and learn to live better in the here and now.

Quote from Kalosyni

Quote from Don

By struggling in an effortful way, one is adding an unnecessary level of pain. Sure, we choose pain sometimes for greater pleasure. My go to example is always exercise

Is effort always painful? (I don't think so myself).

Vatican Saying 41 hints at putting effort into things:

"We must laugh and philosophize at the same time, and do our household duties, and employ our other faculties, and never cease proclaiming the sayings of the true philosophy."

Thanks Don and Kalosyni for your perspectives on effort & pain.

While there can be pain in the effort to learn a new skill or a new exercise, there may come a time where the effort produces no pain, but joy in accomplishment. In some cases for those who have learned their skill well, doing yoga or even playing golf, is a joyful (not painful) effort. As one teacher said, “if you are feeling pain, you’re doing it wrong.”

Quote from Rolf

In other words, if one could achieve maximum pleasure with no effort, then there would be no reason to put in any effort. But since this is seldom, if ever, the case, my answer is “as much effort as it takes”.

I think that Epicurus was trying to give us the lessons for how to master the art of living well, by staying attuned to the nature and natural flows and movements.

So, how much effort does it take to be present in the moment, to live like a god, to live a life of wellbeing (eudaimonia)? Maybe a lifetime of daily, joyful effort, which reminds me of T.S. Eliot’s words.

Quote

“Quick now, here, now, always-
A condition of complete simplicity
(Costing not less than everything)”

― T.S. Eliot, Four Quartets