Epicurus' Hierarchy of Needs

Quote from Rolf

Finally, we have the snow sprinkled atop the mountain representing the natural but unnecessary "extravagant" desires. Once we have everything below, we may take joy in these pleasures and allow them to adorn our life, without feeling like we require them.

I personally would end up choosing a word other than "extravagent" (but not sure exactly what word).

Also, I wouldn't see this as a hierarchy, but instead that they can all occur at the same time.

Quote from Kalosyni

can all occur at the same time.

Pillars? Holding up... Something?

This is an alternative to the triangle format for Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs. Maybe Basic Necessities, Friendship, Prudence or specific items from canon in the boat and the sail or multiple sails could be other aspects.

Quote from Rolf

I use the word "extravagent" as it's the word Emily Austin uses in her book to describe natural but unnecessary desires. I agree it's not the perfect word though - if I recall correctly, Austin doesn't think it is either.

Agreed. It's not perfect by any means, but I remember Dr. Austin saying in our interview episodes that there was NO WAY her editors were going to let her use "natural and necessary" and "natural but no necessary" over and over again the book She had to come up with something.

I also don't think it's perfect, but I like the idea that the word conveys that there is nothing wrong with enjoying things "above and beyond" what are considered necessities.

Quote from Lowri834

This is an alternative to the triangle format for Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs. Maybe Basic Necessities, Friendship, Prudence or specific items from canon in the boat and the sail or multiple sails could be other aspects.

I like the little boat idea/metaphor, especially in light of παιδείαν δὲ πᾶσαν, μακάριε, φεῦγε τἀκάτιον ἀράμενος : Set sail in your own little boat, blessed one, free from all indoctrination. (Usener 163) τἀκάτιον (takation) literally means a light boat, the diminutive of ἄκατος (akatos). The acatium (ἀκάτιον) was especially adapted for fast sailing with light winds.

That said, I'm not sure how to label the parts. I wouldn't advocate for necessary, natural, unnecessary because those are classifications of desires. Maybe Prudence is the sail which steers the ship? I'll have to think on that.

Quote from Don

I also don't think it's perfect, but I like the idea that the word conveys that there is nothing wrong with enjoying things "above and beyond" what are considered necessities.

You think so? I would have said that "extravagant" carries strong negative connotations.

Quote from Rolf

You know, this has me thinking: At least for those of us who are already familiar with the philosophy, using the abbreviations NN, NU, and UU would be a lot cleaner and clearer.

I can appreciate your desire for conciseness, but I'm not a fan of in-group abbreviations. I don't even like referring to Epicurean philosophy as EP. I would also offer that the term "unnecessary" doesn't actually in at least one exposition of the categories of desires, that in the letter to Menoikeus:

Quote

Furthermore, on the one hand, there are the natural desires; on the other, the 'empty, fruitless, or vain ones.' And of the natural ones, on the one hand, are the necessary ones; on the other, the ones which are only natural; then, of the necessary ones: on the one hand, those necessary for eudaimonia; then, those necessary for the freedom from disturbance for the body; then those necessary for life itself. (This is my own literal translation)

In this categorization, Epicurus is only concerned with natural (φυσικαὶ), necessary (ἀναγκαῖαι), and empty (κεναί) categories. I would still contend that those "necessary for life itself" are those essentials at the base of Maslow's hierarchy of needs: food, water, shelter, sleep, air, etc.

Quote from Cassius

Quote from Don

I also don't think it's perfect, but I like the idea that the word conveys that there is nothing wrong with enjoying things "above and beyond" what are considered necessities.

You think so? I would have said that "extravagant" carries strong negative connotations.

One of the reasons I'm fine with Dr. Austin's decision is that it takes back or reclaims that "negative connotation" and turns it on its head. That negative connotation of "extravagant" strikes me as potentially Puritanical. IF "extravagant" desires do no harm to the person or anyone else and IF they do not pose an undue burden to acquire or fulfill, why not indulge in them? Extravagant, indulgent, why not? One definition of the word is "excessive,
going beyond a normal or acceptable limit in degree or amount." (my emphasis added) "Acceptable" to whom? Someone else telling you you're living extravagantly? Mind your own business Now, do I think there's something to the idea of "conspicuous consumption"? "the spending of money on and the acquiring of luxury commodities (goods and services) specifically as a public display of economic power—the income and the accumulated wealth—of the buyer. " (Wikipedia) Now, in the Austin context, I would not call that "extravagant." I would call that trying to fulfill an empty desire. But if something brings you pleasure and meets the criteria of no harm/no undue burden to acquire, I don't think Epicurus opposes that "extravagance."

Quote from Rolf

Would you say “natural”, “necessary”, and “empty” are suitable terms to use?

Well, if it was good enough for Epicurus...

PS. Okay, let me add that "Yes, I know Epicurus didn't use “natural”, “necessary”, and “empty” because he spoke Greek." But those translations are about as close to literal as one gets for φυσικαὶ, ἀναγκαῖαι, and κεναί.

I'd say that in the case of both empty and extravagant, you've got good examples of the problems involved in making clear what it is you are really saying. You definitely want the closest single word you can find, but even then I doubt you can avoid explaining or giving examples. And in Lucretius' case especially, as well as probably Epicurus, at least in regard to atoms, it seems like they regularly close to use a string of close synonyms (or repeating the same thing in different ways) as a method of giving clarity to what they were trying to convey.

Quote from Don

it takes back or reclaims that "negative connotation" and turns it on its head. That negative connotation of "extravagant" strikes me as potentially Puritanical.

I personally feel that "extravagant" still ends up keeping the Puritanical connotation, and seems to convey that you "should" only indulge very rarely.

Quote from Don

Quote from Rolf

Would you say “natural”, “necessary”, and “empty” are suitable terms to use?

Well, if it was good enough for Epicurus...

PS. Okay, let me add that "Yes, I know Epicurus didn't use “natural”, “necessary”, and “empty” because he spoke Greek." But those translations are about as close to literal as one gets for φυσικαὶ, ἀναγκαῖαι, and κεναί.

I like this idea of only: "natural, necessary, and empty".

We could think about it this way:

• natural = Is it natural? Does it come to us from nature? (We will need to be clear about what exactly are all the desires that nature gives to us).
• necessary = Do we need it to survive? Do we need it for our well-being (and to feel blessed/happy).
• empty = Is it actually unnecessary for both survival and well-being? Is it an opinion not from nature but generated by greed for massive riches, non-stop variations of sensation, massive power/control/status (all of which are empty opinions).

Quote from Kalosyni

I like this idea of only: "natural, necessary, and empty".

Actually it should just be:

--- natural and necessary = Is it natural? Does it come to us from nature? (We will need to be clear about what exactly are all the desires that nature gives to us). And... Do we need it to survive? Do we need it for our well-being (and to feel blessed/happy).

-vs-

--- empty = Is it actually unnecessary for both survival and well-being? Is it an opinion not from nature but generated by greed for massive riches, non-stop variations of sensation, massive power/control/status (all of which are empty opinions).

Quote from Rolf

Food is a necessary desire; ice cream is luxurious.

Are we buying into the enemies' conclusions by using their terminology (such as extravagant)?"

What are we really talking about, from an Epicurean point of view?

What is Epicurus saying here as to luxury:

[130] Yet by a scale of comparison and by the consideration of advantages and disadvantages we must form our judgment on all these matters. For the good on certain occasions we treat as bad, and conversely the bad as good. And again independence of desire we think a great good — not that we may at all times enjoy but a few things, but that, if we do not possess many, we may enjoy the few in the genuine persuasion that those have the sweetest pleasure in luxury who least need it, and that all that is natural is easy to be obtained, but that which is superfluous is hard.

"Luxury" carries some of the same negative connotation today, but whatever the Greek is , it is a word Epicurus used.