Welcome Rolf!

Welcome Rolf

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Please say "Hello" by introducing yourself, tell us what prompted your interest in Epicureanism and which particular aspects of Epicureanism most interest you, and/or post a question.

This forum is the place for students of Epicurus to coordinate their studies and work together to promote the philosophy of Epicurus. Please remember that all posting here is subject to our Community Standards / Rules of the Forum our Not Neo-Epicurean, But Epicurean and our Posting Policy statements and associated posts.

Please understand that the leaders of this forum are well aware that many fans of Epicurus may have sincerely-held views of what Epicurus taught that are incompatible with the purposes and standards of this forum. This forum is dedicated exclusively to the study and support of people who are committed to classical Epicurean views. As a result, this forum is not for people who seek to mix and match some Epicurean views with positions that are inherently inconsistent with the core teachings of Epicurus.

All of us who are here have arrived at our respect for Epicurus after long journeys through other philosophies, and we do not demand of others what we were not able to do ourselves. Epicurean philosophy is very different from other viewpoints, and it takes time to understand how deep those differences really are. That's why we have membership levels here at the forum which allow for new participants to discuss and develop their own learning, but it's also why we have standards that will lead in some cases to arguments being limited, and even participants being removed, when the purposes of the community require it. Epicurean philosophy is not inherently democratic, or committed to unlimited free speech, or devoted to any other form of organization other than the pursuit by our community of happy living through the principles of Epicurean philosophy.

One way you can be most assured of your time here being productive is to tell us a little about yourself and your background in reading Epicurean texts. It would also be helpful if you could tell us how you found this forum, and any particular areas of interest that you have which would help us make sure that your questions and thoughts are addressed.

Please check out our Getting Started page.

We have found over the years that there are a number of key texts and references which most all serious students of Epicurus will want to read and evaluate for themselves. Those include the following.

"Epicurus and His Philosophy" by Norman DeWitt

The Biography of Epicurus by Diogenes Laertius. This includes the surviving letters of Epicurus, including those to Herodotus, Pythocles, and Menoeceus.

"On The Nature of Things" - by Lucretius (a poetic abridgement of Epicurus' "On Nature"

"Epicurus on Pleasure" - By Boris Nikolsky

The chapters on Epicurus in Gosling and Taylor's "The Greeks On Pleasure."

Cicero's "On Ends" - Torquatus Section

Cicero's "On The Nature of the Gods" - Velleius Section

The Inscription of Diogenes of Oinoanda - Martin Ferguson Smith translation

A Few Days In Athens" - Frances Wright

Lucian Core Texts on Epicurus: (1) Alexander the Oracle-Monger, (2) Hermotimus

Philodemus "On Methods of Inference" (De Lacy version, including his appendix on relationship of Epicurean canon to Aristotle and other Greeks)

"The Greeks on Pleasure" -Gosling & Taylor Sections on Epicurus, especially the section on katastematic and kinetic pleasure which explains why ultimately this distinction was not of great significance to Epicurus.

It is by no means essential or required that you have read these texts before participating in the forum, but your understanding of Epicurus will be much enhanced the more of these you have read. Feel free to join in on one or more of our conversation threads under various topics found throughout the forum, where you can to ask questions or to add in any of your insights as you study the Epicurean philosophy.

And time has also indicated to us that if you can find the time to read one book which will best explain classical Epicurean philosophy, as opposed to most modern "eclectic" interpretations of Epicurus, that book is Norman DeWitt's Epicurus And His Philosophy.

(If you have any questions regarding the usage of the forum or finding info, please post any questions in this thread).

Welcome to the forum!

Rolfe thanks for your input so far. Don't share any personally-identifying information but it would be interesting to hear more about your background and reading history and other interests. Also, how did you find this forum?

We have an upcoming "first monday" meeting at which you're invited, and as you are in Europe we occasionally set up meetings at times that aren't in the middle of the night for Europeans, and we can work toward another one.

Here's something else about the benefit of looking for and participating in a "community" of like minded people who are interested in Epicurus.

It's very important to be willing and dedicated to thinking for yourself, and not allowing anyone to tell you to take what they say on faith and authority. I fully agree with that.

BUT -

The truth of the world is that there are highly organized forces that have spent thousands of years perfecting methods of philosophical and religious intimidation and oppression. A single individual stands no chance against those forces on his or her own. Most people are not going to be able to make a dent against those forces collectively, or even to the extent of freeing their own minds personally from that influence, without a lot of reading and information and communication from outside themselves.

Again speaking from my recent "Nature's God..." reading, I'll give everyone from 500 AD on up to now the benefit of the doubt and accept that it was absolutely impossible - under penalty of death - for them to escape from the influence of Judeo-Christianity. So I can understand why they would tread lightly around Epicurus and try to cover him over with theism. So my point is not to criticize them, even though of course I do question whether it was absolutely impossible to reproduce an intellectual environment that was widespread in the Roman world only a few hundred years before.

But no one should underestimate the power that has accumulated in established institutions of the world. The various isms that run it, including "humanism," might look like they are all over the board, and they do often agree on very little, except they do agree that Epicurean philosophy is unacceptable.

Our little discussion forum here is not going to make a dent in that power either, but over time, if there is ever to be any re-emergence for truly Epicurean ideas, (in other words to ever get back to the intellectual freedom of 50 BC) people who agree with Epicurean views will have to find ways to work together to get a foothold. That's the only way to hope to stand up against the combined efforts of the rest of the world that keep Epicurean views chained up only to the world of food and other immediate bodily indulgence.

Rolf -

In summary form, it's "good without God" but in the sense of an absolute good that is not related to pleasure. Nietzsche wrote against it for similar reasons. It's an ambiguous term that is more akin to politics than philosophy. There is no recognized definition of what humanism really means - yes there are various groups with their own definitions but there is no systematized statement or formal school where anyone has the right to say is what it really means. And in the sense of implying that there is an absolute good, rather than defining good in relation to pleasure, it's really closer to platonism or stoicism, but without specifying a source for its claims.

EDIT:

In other words, "Good without god" is incomplete, and fails to define what good really means, and equates to "Good without giving a reason"

Check out more details here:

Thread

Epicurean Philosophy Vs. Humanism

I have never considered Epicurean philosophy to be a form of "Humanist" philosophy any more than it is a form of Stoicism or Platonism. I haven't written extensively on this, in part because many Humanists are allies on certain important points, such as rejection of Supernatural Religion.

But I was reminded of this point today and I think it is time to start a thread on it. My position is that "Humanism" is just another "-ism" that has a goal at its center which is very different from…

Cassius

May 27, 2019 at 3:48 PM