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  1. EpicureanFriends - Home of Classical Epicurean Philosophy
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  5. PD 06 - Whatever you can provide yourself with to secure protection ...
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Best Translation of PDO6 to Feature at EpicureanFriends.com

  • Cassius
  • August 8, 2023 at 12:17 PM
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    • August 8, 2023 at 12:17 PM
    • #1

    The following post is one of a series so that we can get our collection of the main list of Principal Doctrines under the "Texts" section in better shape. Although this thread will include a "poll" in the next post, what we are really looking for is the "best" combination of faithfulness to the original combined with clarity in modern English. I will get with a collection of the Level 3 participants here to work on editing the final list, but the full discussion should be open to everyone to consider, so that's what we will do here. The results of the poll won't control what is featured on the text page but will definitely influence in and probably at least result in a footnote to this thread.

    The English translation of PD06 currently featured here in our Texts section is not that of our normal Cyril Bailey from his Extant Remains:, but this time from Eugene O'Connor:

    PD06. Whatever you can provide yourself with to secure protection from men is a natural good. [2]

    We have access (thanks to Nate's full collection) to many different variations including:


    **EΝEΚA TΟΥ ΘAΡΡEΙΝ ****EΞ AΝΘΡΩΠΩΝ ****ΗΝ ΚATA ΦΥΣΙΝ**

    **[AΡΧΗΣ ****ΚAΙ ΒAΣΙΛEΙAΣ]***** AΓAΘΟΝ ****EΞ ΩΝ AΝ ΠΟTE TΟΥTΟ**

    **ΟΙΟΣ T' ῌ ΠAΡAΣΚEΥAΖEΣΘAΙ. **

    ***Arrighetti**

    “For the sake of feeling confidence and security with regard to men, anything in nature is good, if it provides the means to achieve this.” Yonge (1853)

    “As far as concerns protection from other men, any means of procuring this was a natural good.” Hicks (1910)

    “In order to obtain security from other men any means whatsoever of procuring this was a natural good.” Hicks (1925)

    “To secure protection from men anything is a natural good, by which you may be able to attain this end.” Bailey (1926)

    “As for the assurance of safety from the attacks of men, by virtue of the nature of political dominion and kingly power this is a good thing, no matter by whose aid one is able to procure it." DeWitt, Epicurus and His Philosophy 79 (1954)

    “Political rule and kingly power being what they are, it is a good thing to feel secure in human relations no matter through whose agency one is able to attain this." DeWitt, St. Paul and Epicurus 187 (1954)

    “Any device whatever by which one frees himself from the fear of others is a natural good.” Geer (1964)

    “Whatever you can provide yourself with to secure protection from men is a natural good.” O'Connor (1993)

    “The natural good of public office and kingship is for the sake of getting confidence from [other] men, [at least] from those from whom one is able to provide this.” Inwood & Gerson (1994)

    “That natural benefit of kingship and high office is (and only is) the degree to which they provide security from other men.” Anderson (2004)

    “This [human ability to lead a good life] originally became possible by nature and for the sake of imparting courage in human beings [who were then living in a pre-social condition.] And this is the natural origin and principle on which all authority—be it even kingship—is based. And it is from the same [natural propensities] that a human being is able also to arrange a good and pleasant life.” Makridis (2005)

    “It is a natural benefit of leadership and kingship to take courage from other men (or at least from the sort of men who can give one courage).” Saint-Andre (2008)

    “Any means by which it is possible to procure freedom from fearing other men is a natural good.” Strodach (2012)

    “In order that men might not fear one another, there was a natural benefit to be had from government and kingship, provided that they are able to bring about this result.” Mensch (2018)

    “There was some natural good in leadership and kingship for the purpose of establishing mutual confidence among people, any time someone is thereby able to do so.” White (2021)

    New Greek Version: “In order to obtain security from other people, there was (always) the natural good of sovereignty and kingship, through which (someone) once could have accomplished this.”

    ---

    Which of the above, or which with changes you would suggest, should be featured here in the main list? In the interest of space the poll will not include every option, so please add a comment in the thread if you would suggest a variation not listed.

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    • August 8, 2023 at 12:19 PM
    • #2

    Which Translation of PD06 Should be Featured At EpicureanFriends.com? 0

    The result is only visible to the participants.

    Which Translation of PD06 Should be Featured At EpicureanFriends.com?

  • Don
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    • August 8, 2023 at 12:26 PM
    • #3

    Greek text: Usener edition

    6

    ἕνεκα τοῦ θαρρεῖν ἐξ ανθρώπων ἦν κατὰ φύσιν ἀρχῆς καὶ βασιλείας ἀγαθόν, ἐξ ὧν ἄν ποτε τοῦτο οἷός τʼᾖ παρασκευάζεσθαι.

    • Ἕνεκα
      • ἕνεκᾰ
        • (with genitive)
          • on account of, for the sake of, because of
          • with regard to, as far as regards, as for
    • τοῦ θαρρεῖν
      • θαρσέω to be of good courage, take courage; confidence, audacity
        • θαρρεῖν present active infinitive
        • C. inf. to believe confidently that, Soph.; also, to make bold or venture to do, Xen.
    • ἀρχῆς καὶ βασιλείας
    • https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?do…57:entry=a)rxh/
    • https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?do…ntry=basilei/a2
    • ἐξ ἀνθρώπων
      • "from humans/people/mankind"
    • ἦν κατὰ φύσιν ἀγαθόν,
      • κατὰ + accusative:
        • downwards
        • along, through, in
        • towards
        • during
        • for, for the purpose of
        • according to, in conformity with
      • φύσιν ἀγαθόν = "natural good (something doing good practical service to one)"
    • ἐξ ὧν ἄν ποτε τοῦτο οἷός
      • ὧν masculine/feminine/neuter genitive plural of ὅς who, which, that
      • ἄν particle, expresses potentiality "in that case"
      • ποτε (adverb) at some time (or other), at one time
      • οἶος m (feminine οἴᾱ, neuter οἶον); first/second declension
        • only, single
    • τ’ ᾖ παρασκευάζεσθαι.
      • παρασκευάζω.
        • A. to get ready, prepare, Hdt., attic
          • 2. to provide, procure, to get up, Dem.
          • 3. to make or render so and so, with a Part. or adj., π. τινὰ εὖ ἔχοντα, π. τινὰ ὅτι βέλτιστον Xen.; c. inf., π. τινὰ ὡς μὴ ποιεῖν to accustom him not to do, id=Xen.;—so, π. ὅπως ὡς βέλτισται ἔσονται αἱ ψυχαί Plat.
          • 4. absol. to make one's friend, Dem.
        • B. Mid. and Pass.:
          • I. in proper sense of Mid., to get ready or prepare for oneself, Hdt., attic
          • 2. in Oratt. to procure witnesses and partisans, so as to obtain a false verdict (cf. παρασκευή 1. 3):—absol. to form a party, intrigue, Dem.:—so in Act., Xen.
            II. in Mid., absol. to prepare oneself, make preparations, Hdt., attic
          • 2. perf. παρεσκεύασμαι is mostly pass. to be ready, be prepared, Hdt., attic; παρεσκευάσθαι τί to be provided with a thing, Plat.:—impers., ὡς παρεσκεύαστο when preparations had been made, Thuc.
        • fut. άσω. Pass., perf. παρεσκεύασμαι
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    • August 8, 2023 at 12:36 PM
    • #4

    Heidi-HO! HEIDI-Ho! It's time for the next KD.

    I dislike almost every available translation of this. I take liberties, but it feels right to my linguistic hemisphere:

    “What comes from society for the sake of confidence <for instance, “Queen and Country”> comes in accordance with Nature [and with] the Good, [and] sometimes [it is] only from that [legacy] that this [security] may be procured.”

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    • August 8, 2023 at 1:24 PM
    • #5

    Don your breakdown by word reminds me of the "nodictionaries.com" format for Latin. I don't suppose you know of an equivalent for Greek?

  • Don
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    • August 8, 2023 at 1:29 PM
    • #6
    Quote from Cassius

    Don your breakdown by word reminds me of the "nodictionaries.com" format for Latin. I don't suppose you know of an equivalent for Greek?

    I typically defer to Wiktionary or directly to Liddell and Scott on Perseus.

    PS. Perseus does something similar with its clickable words in texts but not exactly like nodictionaries. I was unaware on that site.

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    • August 8, 2023 at 2:13 PM
    • #7

    I'm flummoxed. There seem to be two basic versions:

    1) anything (that provides safety/confidence/freedom from fear...) is a natural good

    2) kingship and politics (if they provide safety/confidence/freedom from fear) are natural goods

    Personally, I prefer the second version as the first opens the door to all sorts of nefarious and misguided behavior whereas the second is fairly specific. But I'm unclear as to whether the Greek might support one or the other of these versions.

  • Don
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    • August 8, 2023 at 4:12 PM
    • #8

    I don't see anything about kingship or politics in the Greek. Am I missing something?

    EDIT: See below for where those words comes from in the manuscripts. I dug into them after posting this post.

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    • August 8, 2023 at 4:30 PM
    • #9
    Quote from Don

    I don't see anything about kingship or politics in the Greek. Am I missing something

    I seem to remember that we have been down this road before and Elli had some commentary but we will have to look back.....

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    • August 8, 2023 at 4:58 PM
    • #10
    Quote from Cassius
    Quote from Don

    I don't see anything about kingship or politics in the Greek. Am I missing something

    I seem to remember that we have been down this road before and Elli had some commentary but we will have to look back.....

    Thread

    Disputes as to correct translation of PD6 - Should it refer to "sovereignty" and "kingship"?

    I am informed by Elli P. that there are serious issues with the standard English translation of PD6. The versions we most commonly see are:

    Bailey: "To secure protection from men anything is a natural good, by which you may be able to attain this end." (note the strangely-placed comma)

    Hicks/Loeb: "In order to obtain security from other men any means whatsoever of procuring this was a natural good."

    But Hicks notes a problem: epicureanfriends.com/wcf/attachment/34/

    Elli cites this version…
    Cassius
    November 23, 2017 at 6:40 PM
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    • August 8, 2023 at 5:25 PM
    • #11

    Yep that's the one, and we're still batting it back and forth! Thanks Don!

    It's always interesting and a little scary to read what was written three years ago by the same people who may have very different thoughts now!

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    • August 8, 2023 at 5:44 PM
    • #12
    Quote from Don

    I don't see anything about kingship or politics in the Greek. Am I missing something?

    It's text added by Arrighetti denoted with the <brackets>. I believe I have that version listed in my KD compilation.

  • Don
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    • August 8, 2023 at 6:46 PM
    • #13
    Quote from Nate
    Quote from Don

    I don't see anything about kingship or politics in the Greek. Am I missing something?

    It's text added by Arrighetti denoted with the <brackets>. I believe I have that version listed in my KD compilation.

    Do we know which manuscript Arrigheti says this is from?

  • Don
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    • August 8, 2023 at 7:16 PM
    • #14

    Ah! Bailey's commentary...

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    • August 8, 2023 at 7:23 PM
    • #15

    As a general comment - that kind of editorial thinking can easily lead to problems. Is he really so sure what was in Epicurus' mind when the text says something else? Sounds like this is one of those situations where Dewitt prefers "less emended texts."

    Add that this editorial thinking comes from Bailey and I am even more suspicious of it.

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    • August 8, 2023 at 7:25 PM
    • #16
    Quote from Nate

    It's text added by Arrighetti denoted with the <brackets>. I believe I have that version listed in my KD compilation.

    And so Nate in this situation the text really is there, and is just read OUT by most, but does exist in the manuscript?

  • Don
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    • August 8, 2023 at 7:55 PM
    • #17
    Quote from Cassius

    does exist in the manuscript?

    I'll have to check those later. Stay tuned....

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    • August 8, 2023 at 10:34 PM
    • #18

    Okay, here we go...

    Plut.69.35 - written 1101-1200 CE (12 century CE)

    this one clearly has (2nd line φυσιν αρχησ και βασιλειασ...

    codex Parisinus gr. 1759 (14th c.) known as P

    Well, would you look at at that... in the middle of the second line...φυσιν αρχησ και βασιλειασ...

    Grec. 1758

    AND three's a charm!! at the end of the first line... φυσιν αρχησ και βασιλειασ αγαθον

    So, I suppose you can editorialize and comment as much as one wants... but the phrase is *consistently* there in the manuscripts.

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    • August 8, 2023 at 11:02 PM
    • #19

    I have never had much fix on Usener because I have never been able to read any commentary by him that may exist, but I know I don't have a good feel about Bailey's discretion. But in this case we can't pin this on Bailey, correct? I wish we had more access to Usener's general thoughts on Epicurus to see if (or how) he made similar "this can't be right" comments.

    Thank you again Don for all you do.

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    • August 8, 2023 at 11:05 PM
    • #20
    Quote from Cassius

    I have never had much fix on Usener because I have never been able to read any commentary by him that may exist, but I know I don't have a good feel about Bailey's discretion. But in this case we can't pin this on Bailey, correct? I wish we had more access to Usener's general thoughts on Epicurus to see if (or how) he made similar "this can't be right" comments.

    Thank you again Don for all you do.

    Usener's Epicurea is on Internet Archive....

    Hermann Usener Epicurea ( 1887) : Hermann Usener (editor) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
    Epicurea is a collection of texts, fragments and testimonies by Epicurus composed by Hermann Usener in 1887
    archive.org

    LOL! Granted in *Latin* but it's freely available to peruse.

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