1. Home
    1. Start Here: Study Guide
    2. Community Standards And Posting Policies
    3. Terms of Use
    4. Moderator Team
    5. Site Map
    6. Quizzes
    7. Articles
      1. Featured Articles
    8. All Blog Posts
      1. Elli's Blog / Articles
  2. Wiki
    1. Wiki Home
    2. FAQ
    3. Classical Epicureanism
    4. Physics Wiki
    5. Canonics Wiki
    6. Ethics Wiki
    7. Search Assistance
    8. Not NeoEpicurean
    9. Foundations
    10. Navigation Outlines
    11. Key Pages
  3. Forum
    1. Full Forum List
    2. Welcome Threads
    3. Physics
    4. Canonics
    5. Ethics
    6. Uncategorized Forum
    7. Study Resources Forum
    8. Ancient Texts Forum
    9. Shortcuts
    10. Featured
    11. Most Discussed
  4. Latest
    1. New Activity
    2. Latest Threads
    3. Dashboard
    4. Search By Tag
    5. Complete Tag List
  5. Podcast
    1. Lucretius Today Podcast
    2. Episode Guide
    3. Lucretius Today At Youtube
    4. EpicureanFriends Youtube Page
  6. Texts
    1. Overview
    2. Diogenes Laertius
    3. Principal Doctrines
    4. Vatican Sayings
    5. Lucretius
    6. Herodotus
    7. Pythocles
    8. Menoeceus
    9. Fragments - Usener Collection
    10. Torquatus On Ethics
    11. Velleius On Gods
    12. Greek/Latin Help
  7. Gallery
    1. Featured images
    2. Albums
    3. Latest Images
    4. Latest Comments
  8. Calendar
    1. Upcoming Events List
    2. Zoom Meetings
    3. This Month
    4. Sunday Zoom Meetings
    5. First Monday Zoom Meetings
    6. Wednesday Zoom Meeting
    7. Twentieth Zoom Meetings
    8. Zoom Meetings
  9. Other
    1. Featured Content
    2. Blog Posts
    3. Files
    4. Logbook
    5. EF ToDo List
    6. Link-Database
  • Login
  • Register
  • Search
This Thread
  • Everywhere
  • This Thread
  • This Forum
  • Forum
  • Articles
  • Blog Articles
  • Files
  • Gallery
  • Events
  • Pages
  • Wiki
  • Help
  • FAQ
  • More Options

Welcome To EpicureanFriends.com!

"Remember that you are mortal, and you have a limited time to live, and in devoting yourself to discussion of the nature of time and eternity you have seen things that have been, are now, and are to come."

Sign In Now
or
Register a new account
  1. Home
    1. Start Here: Study Guide
    2. Community Standards And Posting Policies
    3. Terms of Use
    4. Moderator Team
    5. Site Map
    6. Quizzes
    7. Articles
      1. Featured Articles
    8. All Blog Posts
      1. Elli's Blog / Articles
  2. Wiki
    1. Wiki Home
    2. FAQ
    3. Classical Epicureanism
    4. Physics Wiki
    5. Canonics Wiki
    6. Ethics Wiki
    7. Search Assistance
    8. Not NeoEpicurean
    9. Foundations
    10. Navigation Outlines
    11. Key Pages
  3. Forum
    1. Full Forum List
    2. Welcome Threads
    3. Physics
    4. Canonics
    5. Ethics
    6. Uncategorized Forum
    7. Study Resources Forum
    8. Ancient Texts Forum
    9. Shortcuts
    10. Featured
    11. Most Discussed
  4. Latest
    1. New Activity
    2. Latest Threads
    3. Dashboard
    4. Search By Tag
    5. Complete Tag List
  5. Podcast
    1. Lucretius Today Podcast
    2. Episode Guide
    3. Lucretius Today At Youtube
    4. EpicureanFriends Youtube Page
  6. Texts
    1. Overview
    2. Diogenes Laertius
    3. Principal Doctrines
    4. Vatican Sayings
    5. Lucretius
    6. Herodotus
    7. Pythocles
    8. Menoeceus
    9. Fragments - Usener Collection
    10. Torquatus On Ethics
    11. Velleius On Gods
    12. Greek/Latin Help
  7. Gallery
    1. Featured images
    2. Albums
    3. Latest Images
    4. Latest Comments
  8. Calendar
    1. Upcoming Events List
    2. Zoom Meetings
    3. This Month
    4. Sunday Zoom Meetings
    5. First Monday Zoom Meetings
    6. Wednesday Zoom Meeting
    7. Twentieth Zoom Meetings
    8. Zoom Meetings
  9. Other
    1. Featured Content
    2. Blog Posts
    3. Files
    4. Logbook
    5. EF ToDo List
    6. Link-Database
  1. Home
    1. Start Here: Study Guide
    2. Community Standards And Posting Policies
    3. Terms of Use
    4. Moderator Team
    5. Site Map
    6. Quizzes
    7. Articles
      1. Featured Articles
    8. All Blog Posts
      1. Elli's Blog / Articles
  2. Wiki
    1. Wiki Home
    2. FAQ
    3. Classical Epicureanism
    4. Physics Wiki
    5. Canonics Wiki
    6. Ethics Wiki
    7. Search Assistance
    8. Not NeoEpicurean
    9. Foundations
    10. Navigation Outlines
    11. Key Pages
  3. Forum
    1. Full Forum List
    2. Welcome Threads
    3. Physics
    4. Canonics
    5. Ethics
    6. Uncategorized Forum
    7. Study Resources Forum
    8. Ancient Texts Forum
    9. Shortcuts
    10. Featured
    11. Most Discussed
  4. Latest
    1. New Activity
    2. Latest Threads
    3. Dashboard
    4. Search By Tag
    5. Complete Tag List
  5. Podcast
    1. Lucretius Today Podcast
    2. Episode Guide
    3. Lucretius Today At Youtube
    4. EpicureanFriends Youtube Page
  6. Texts
    1. Overview
    2. Diogenes Laertius
    3. Principal Doctrines
    4. Vatican Sayings
    5. Lucretius
    6. Herodotus
    7. Pythocles
    8. Menoeceus
    9. Fragments - Usener Collection
    10. Torquatus On Ethics
    11. Velleius On Gods
    12. Greek/Latin Help
  7. Gallery
    1. Featured images
    2. Albums
    3. Latest Images
    4. Latest Comments
  8. Calendar
    1. Upcoming Events List
    2. Zoom Meetings
    3. This Month
    4. Sunday Zoom Meetings
    5. First Monday Zoom Meetings
    6. Wednesday Zoom Meeting
    7. Twentieth Zoom Meetings
    8. Zoom Meetings
  9. Other
    1. Featured Content
    2. Blog Posts
    3. Files
    4. Logbook
    5. EF ToDo List
    6. Link-Database
  1. EpicureanFriends - Home of Classical Epicurean Philosophy
  2. Forum
  3. Comparisons With Other Philosophies
  4. Epicurean Philosophy vs. Sartre and Existentialism
  • Sidebar
  • Sidebar

Nihilism and Turgenev's novel "Fathers and Sons"

  • Martin
  • April 20, 2023 at 5:30 AM
  • Go to last post

We are now requiring that new registrants confirm their request for an account by email.  Once you complete the "Sign Up" process to set up your user name and password, please send an email to the New Accounts Administator to obtain new account approval.

Regularly Checking In On A Small Screen Device? Bookmark THIS page!
  • Martin
    04 - Moderator
    Points
    4,253
    Posts
    601
    Quizzes
    7
    Quiz rate
    85.9 %
    • April 20, 2023 at 5:30 AM
    • #1

    Ivan Turgenev writes in the epilogue to his novel "Fathers and Sons" that a young physician he had known inspired him to write the novel and to embody that physician in that novel.

    He noted a similar mindset in other people as well but did not find it described in the literature known to him. Therefore, he created the term "nihilist" for this novel, apparently not knowing that "nihilism" had already been used previously.

    The disciple of the nihilist physician in the novel defines a nihilist as "a man who does not bow down before any authority, who does not take any principle without prior examination, no matter how revered it is." (My translation from the German translation in Chapter 5)

    Turgenev was sympathetic to the ideas of the nihilist physician in his novel except for that nihilist's rejection of art. The novel became well known in Russia soon after the publication and was misinterpreted by political factions in Russia. Members of those factions falsely accused Turgenev to support the respective opposing faction with his novel whereas Turgenev merely attempted to capture the zeitgeist / revolutionary spirit of the young generation.

    Some revolutionaries did call themselves nihilists after the novel had popularized the word. Nihilism was apparently used as a catch phrase for everything to which the older generation and those in power were opposed to.

    The nihilism in Turgenev's novel as quoted above appears to be mostly compatible with Epicurus' philosophy. However, the meaning of nihilism has become much broader than in that quote. Within the novel, it is expanded to political nihilism and moral nihilism with usefulness as replacement for the traditional ethics based on Christianism.

    Naive application of materialism to whatever aspect without thinking further has led to nihilism as negation of meaning in that aspect already in ancient philosophy. None of the philosophers who I have seen labeled as nihilistic so far were actually nihilists in every aspect but rather warned against nihilism or used it as a strawman to explain their own opposing views. E.g., Nietzsche wrote about nihilism not to propagate it but to diagnose it as a mindset with potentially catastrophic consequences and to overcome it. Albert Camus was apparently not a moral nihilist. Existentialism was rather a movement which did not get stuck in nihilism but build humanist ethics from materialism. Buddhism in general and Buddhism's concept of Nirwana in particular have nothing in common with nihilism. Buddha himself opposed the nihilists of his time.

    Epicurus' philosophy shares materialism with nihilism and includes cosmic nihilism. Other types such as moral nihilism, epistemological nihilism and existential nihilism are apparently not compatible with Epicurus' philosophy. Correspondingly, nihilism occurs in many comments in this forum as synonym for extreme skepticism, despair or absence of meaning.

    More on "Fathers and Sons" as a recommended good read:

    Whereas I usually prefer reading plays over novels, I enjoyed "Fathers and Sons" very much and got close to shedding sentimental tears at the end.

    The novel is mostly humorous and touching. It creates an authentic Russian atmosphere, e.g., by incorporation of many Russian proverbs, descriptions of locations, weather conditions and traditional things and customs, and references to actual historic events.

    The main characters are convincingly worked out. I liked all of them.

    The nihilists in the novel appear to be rather talk-only when it comes to politics, in analogy with most leftist student groups in Germany of the last 50 years and the rebel leaders in the movie "Life of Brian".

    The conflict between young nihilists and the elder in the novel appears to be merely the then contemporary variant of the eternal conflict between generations.

    That conflict is surprisingly mooted in the father-son pairs to which the title refers.

    Spoiler alert for those who consider reading Turgenev's novel "Fathers and Sons"!

    The conflict becomes serious between the nihilist physician and the uncle of the nihilist physician's disciple and culminates in a duel.

    The widowed father of the nihilist physician's disciple is reminded of the severe generational conflict he had with his mother in his own youth when he notices with some sadness the mental gap between himself and his son.

    The son gives him (Ludwig) Buechner's book "Kraft und Stoff" to read (an introduction to scientific materialism for the general public actually published in 1855). He tells his brother:"Either I am a fool, or the author is insane. But certainly, I am a fool." (my translation from the German translation in Chapter 10)

    That father has a baby with a young commoner and does at first not marry her to avoid offending his brother, who later on actually urges him to marry her.

    That anglophile Russian traditionalist brother ironically ends up as somewhat nihilistic himself, living in Germany in his old age because of the relatively milder climate there.

    The nihilist physician lives up to his nihilism by staying calm when faced with death twice but sometimes becomes comically inconsequential, especially when his nihilistic disregard for societal taboos propels him to inappropriate actions upon falling in love twice in contrast to his nihilistic dismissal of love.

    An intellectual princess evokes the cliche of tsarina Katharina.

    The initially eager disciple of the nihilist physician abandons nihilism and assumes his role as a rural aristocrat after marrying the younger sister of that princess.

  • Cassius
    05 - Administrator
    Points
    106,086
    Posts
    14,534
    Quizzes
    9
    Quiz rate
    100.0 %
    • April 20, 2023 at 6:32 AM
    • #2

    That's a good reminder of the need to pay attention to words and how they are understood:

    To the extent the "truth" being opposed is held to be truth solely because it is "accepted" - Epicurus clearly would come under that heading, but on the other hand to the extent "truth" is denied because there is nothing fundamental, or that knowledge or morality or value or meaning are impossible, he clearly would not.

    We always have to be careful to be sure that we are being understood clearly.

Unread Threads

    1. Title
    2. Replies
    3. Last Reply
    1. Immutability of Epicurean school in ancient times 15

      • Thanks 1
      • TauPhi
      • July 28, 2025 at 8:44 PM
      • Uncategorized Discussion (General)
      • TauPhi
      • September 10, 2025 at 7:08 AM
    2. Replies
      15
      Views
      3k
      15
    3. Cassius

      September 10, 2025 at 7:08 AM
    1. Boris Nikolsky - Article On His Interest in Classical Philosophy (Original In Russian) 1

      • Thanks 1
      • Cassius
      • September 6, 2025 at 5:21 PM
      • Articles Prepared By Professional Academics
      • Cassius
      • September 8, 2025 at 10:37 AM
    2. Replies
      1
      Views
      1.6k
      1
    3. Cassius

      September 8, 2025 at 10:37 AM
    1. Boris Nikolsky's 2023 Summary Of His Thesis About Epicurus On Pleasure (From "Knife" Magazine)

      • Cassius
      • September 6, 2025 at 5:32 PM
      • Articles Prepared By Professional Academics
      • Cassius
      • September 6, 2025 at 5:32 PM
    2. Replies
      0
      Views
      1.3k
    1. Edward Abbey - My Favorite Quotes 4

      • Love 4
      • Joshua
      • July 11, 2019 at 7:57 PM
      • Uncategorized Discussion (General)
      • Joshua
      • August 31, 2025 at 1:02 PM
    2. Replies
      4
      Views
      4.7k
      4
    3. SillyApe

      August 31, 2025 at 1:02 PM
    1. A Question About Hobbes From Facebook

      • Cassius
      • August 24, 2025 at 9:11 AM
      • Uncategorized Discussion (General)
      • Cassius
      • August 24, 2025 at 9:11 AM
    2. Replies
      0
      Views
      2k

Finding Things At EpicureanFriends.com

What's the best strategy for finding things on EpicureanFriends.com? Here's a suggested search strategy:

  • First, familiarize yourself with the list of forums. The best way to find threads related to a particular topic is to look in the relevant forum. Over the years most people have tried to start threads according to forum topic, and we regularly move threads from our "general discussion" area over to forums with more descriptive titles.
  • Use the "Search" facility at the top right of every page. Note that the search box asks you what section of the forum you'd like to search. If you don't know, select "Everywhere." Also check the "Search Assistance" page.
  • Use the "Tag" facility, starting with the "Key Tags By Topic" in the right hand navigation pane, or using the "Search By Tag" page, or the "Tag Overview" page which contains a list of all tags alphabetically. We curate the available tags to keep them to a manageable number that is descriptive of frequently-searched topics.

Frequently Used Forums

  • Frequently Asked / Introductory Questions
  • News And Announcements
  • Lucretius Today Podcast
  • Physics (The Nature of the Universe)
  • Canonics (The Tests Of Truth)
  • Ethics (How To Live)
  • Against Determinism
  • Against Skepticism
  • The "Meaning of Life" Question
  • Uncategorized Discussion
  • Comparisons With Other Philosophies
  • Historical Figures
  • Ancient Texts
  • Decline of The Ancient Epicurean Age
  • Unsolved Questions of Epicurean History
  • Welcome New Participants
  • Events - Activism - Outreach
  • Full Forum List

Latest Posts

  • Fragment 32 -- The "Shouting To All Greeks And Non-Greeks That Virtue Is Not The Goal" Passage

    Patrikios September 11, 2025 at 6:41 PM
  • Bodily Sensations, Sentience and AI

    Patrikios September 11, 2025 at 5:05 PM
  • Additional Timeline Details Needed

    Eikadistes September 11, 2025 at 12:15 PM
  • Specific Methods of Resistance Against Our Coming AI Overlords

    Adrastus September 10, 2025 at 4:43 PM
  • The Role of Virtue in Epicurean Philosophy According the Wall of Oinoanda

    Kalosyni September 10, 2025 at 12:06 PM
  • Comparing The Pleasure of A Great Physicist Making A Discovery To The Pleasure of A Lion Eating A Lamb

    Cassius September 10, 2025 at 11:05 AM
  • Surviving References To Timasagorus

    Cassius September 10, 2025 at 7:39 AM
  • Surviving Quotations From Polystratus

    Cassius September 10, 2025 at 7:18 AM
  • Immutability of Epicurean school in ancient times

    Cassius September 10, 2025 at 7:08 AM
  • A List of Pleasures Specifically Endorsed By Epicurus

    Cassius September 9, 2025 at 11:48 AM

Frequently Used Tags

In addition to posting in the appropriate forums, participants are encouraged to reference the following tags in their posts:

  • #Physics
    • #Atomism
    • #Gods
    • #Images
    • #Infinity
    • #Eternity
    • #Life
    • #Death
  • #Canonics
    • #Knowledge
    • #Scepticism
  • #Ethics

    • #Pleasure
    • #Pain
    • #Engagement
    • #EpicureanLiving
    • #Friendship
    • #Happiness
    • #Virtue
      • #Wisdom
      • #Temperance
      • #Courage
      • #Justice
      • #Honesty
      • #Faith (Confidence)
      • #Friendship
      • #Suavity
      • #Consideration
      • #Hope
      • #Gratitude



Click Here To Search All Tags

To Suggest Additions To This List Click Here

EpicureanFriends - Classical Epicurean Philosophy

  1. Home
    1. About Us
    2. Classical Epicurean Philosophy
  2. Wiki
    1. Getting Started
  3. Frequently Asked Questions
    1. Site Map
  4. Forum
    1. Latest Threads
    2. Featured Threads
    3. Unread Posts
  5. Texts
    1. Core Texts
    2. Biography of Epicurus
    3. Lucretius
  6. Articles
    1. Latest Articles
  7. Gallery
    1. Featured Images
  8. Calendar
    1. This Month At EpicureanFriends
Powered by WoltLab Suite™ 6.0.22
Style: Inspire by cls-design
Stylename
Inspire
Manufacturer
cls-design
Licence
Commercial styles
Help
Supportforum
Visit cls-design