1. Home
    1. Start Here: Study Guide
    2. Community Standards And Posting Policies
    3. Terms of Use
    4. Moderator Team
    5. Site Map
    6. Quizzes
    7. Articles
      1. Featured Articles
    8. All Blog Posts
      1. Elli's Blog / Articles
  2. Wiki
    1. Wiki Home
    2. FAQ
    3. Classical Epicureanism
    4. Physics Wiki
    5. Canonics Wiki
    6. Ethics Wiki
    7. Search Assistance
    8. Not NeoEpicurean
    9. Foundations
    10. Navigation Outlines
    11. Key Pages
  3. Forum
    1. Full Forum List
    2. Welcome Threads
    3. Physics
    4. Canonics
    5. Ethics
    6. Uncategorized Forum
    7. Study Resources Forum
    8. Ancient Texts Forum
    9. Shortcuts
    10. Featured
    11. Most Discussed
  4. Latest
    1. New Activity
    2. Latest Threads
    3. Dashboard
    4. Search By Tag
    5. Complete Tag List
  5. Podcast
    1. Lucretius Today Podcast
    2. Episode Guide
    3. Lucretius Today At Youtube
    4. EpicureanFriends Youtube Page
  6. Texts
    1. Overview
    2. Diogenes Laertius
    3. Principal Doctrines
    4. Vatican Sayings
    5. Lucretius
    6. Herodotus
    7. Pythocles
    8. Menoeceus
    9. Fragments - Usener Collection
    10. Torquatus On Ethics
    11. Velleius On Gods
    12. Greek/Latin Help
  7. Gallery
    1. Featured images
    2. Albums
    3. Latest Images
    4. Latest Comments
  8. Calendar
    1. Upcoming Events List
    2. Zoom Meetings
    3. This Month
    4. Sunday Zoom Meetings
    5. First Monday Zoom Meetings
    6. Wednesday Zoom Meeting
    7. Twentieth Zoom Meetings
    8. Zoom Meetings
  9. Other
    1. Featured Content
    2. Blog Posts
    3. Files
    4. Logbook
    5. EF ToDo List
    6. Link-Database
  • Login
  • Register
  • Search
This Thread
  • Everywhere
  • This Thread
  • This Forum
  • Forum
  • Articles
  • Blog Articles
  • Files
  • Gallery
  • Events
  • Pages
  • Wiki
  • Help
  • FAQ
  • More Options

Welcome To EpicureanFriends.com!

"Remember that you are mortal, and you have a limited time to live, and in devoting yourself to discussion of the nature of time and eternity you have seen things that have been, are now, and are to come."

Sign In Now
or
Register a new account
  1. Home
    1. Start Here: Study Guide
    2. Community Standards And Posting Policies
    3. Terms of Use
    4. Moderator Team
    5. Site Map
    6. Quizzes
    7. Articles
      1. Featured Articles
    8. All Blog Posts
      1. Elli's Blog / Articles
  2. Wiki
    1. Wiki Home
    2. FAQ
    3. Classical Epicureanism
    4. Physics Wiki
    5. Canonics Wiki
    6. Ethics Wiki
    7. Search Assistance
    8. Not NeoEpicurean
    9. Foundations
    10. Navigation Outlines
    11. Key Pages
  3. Forum
    1. Full Forum List
    2. Welcome Threads
    3. Physics
    4. Canonics
    5. Ethics
    6. Uncategorized Forum
    7. Study Resources Forum
    8. Ancient Texts Forum
    9. Shortcuts
    10. Featured
    11. Most Discussed
  4. Latest
    1. New Activity
    2. Latest Threads
    3. Dashboard
    4. Search By Tag
    5. Complete Tag List
  5. Podcast
    1. Lucretius Today Podcast
    2. Episode Guide
    3. Lucretius Today At Youtube
    4. EpicureanFriends Youtube Page
  6. Texts
    1. Overview
    2. Diogenes Laertius
    3. Principal Doctrines
    4. Vatican Sayings
    5. Lucretius
    6. Herodotus
    7. Pythocles
    8. Menoeceus
    9. Fragments - Usener Collection
    10. Torquatus On Ethics
    11. Velleius On Gods
    12. Greek/Latin Help
  7. Gallery
    1. Featured images
    2. Albums
    3. Latest Images
    4. Latest Comments
  8. Calendar
    1. Upcoming Events List
    2. Zoom Meetings
    3. This Month
    4. Sunday Zoom Meetings
    5. First Monday Zoom Meetings
    6. Wednesday Zoom Meeting
    7. Twentieth Zoom Meetings
    8. Zoom Meetings
  9. Other
    1. Featured Content
    2. Blog Posts
    3. Files
    4. Logbook
    5. EF ToDo List
    6. Link-Database
  1. Home
    1. Start Here: Study Guide
    2. Community Standards And Posting Policies
    3. Terms of Use
    4. Moderator Team
    5. Site Map
    6. Quizzes
    7. Articles
      1. Featured Articles
    8. All Blog Posts
      1. Elli's Blog / Articles
  2. Wiki
    1. Wiki Home
    2. FAQ
    3. Classical Epicureanism
    4. Physics Wiki
    5. Canonics Wiki
    6. Ethics Wiki
    7. Search Assistance
    8. Not NeoEpicurean
    9. Foundations
    10. Navigation Outlines
    11. Key Pages
  3. Forum
    1. Full Forum List
    2. Welcome Threads
    3. Physics
    4. Canonics
    5. Ethics
    6. Uncategorized Forum
    7. Study Resources Forum
    8. Ancient Texts Forum
    9. Shortcuts
    10. Featured
    11. Most Discussed
  4. Latest
    1. New Activity
    2. Latest Threads
    3. Dashboard
    4. Search By Tag
    5. Complete Tag List
  5. Podcast
    1. Lucretius Today Podcast
    2. Episode Guide
    3. Lucretius Today At Youtube
    4. EpicureanFriends Youtube Page
  6. Texts
    1. Overview
    2. Diogenes Laertius
    3. Principal Doctrines
    4. Vatican Sayings
    5. Lucretius
    6. Herodotus
    7. Pythocles
    8. Menoeceus
    9. Fragments - Usener Collection
    10. Torquatus On Ethics
    11. Velleius On Gods
    12. Greek/Latin Help
  7. Gallery
    1. Featured images
    2. Albums
    3. Latest Images
    4. Latest Comments
  8. Calendar
    1. Upcoming Events List
    2. Zoom Meetings
    3. This Month
    4. Sunday Zoom Meetings
    5. First Monday Zoom Meetings
    6. Wednesday Zoom Meeting
    7. Twentieth Zoom Meetings
    8. Zoom Meetings
  9. Other
    1. Featured Content
    2. Blog Posts
    3. Files
    4. Logbook
    5. EF ToDo List
    6. Link-Database
  1. EpicureanFriends - Home of Classical Epicurean Philosophy
  2. Forum
  3. Ancient Texts Relevant To Epicurus
  4. Lucretius - On The Nature of Things
  5. General Discussion of "On The Nature of Things"
  • Sidebar
  • Sidebar

Lucretius' Expressions of Epicurus' Atomoi

  • Eikadistes
  • February 4, 2023 at 6:06 PM
  • Go to last post

We are now requiring that new registrants confirm their request for an account by email.  Once you complete the "Sign Up" process to set up your user name and password, please send an email to the New Accounts Administator to obtain new account approval.

Regularly Checking In On A Small Screen Device? Bookmark THIS page!
  • Eikadistes
    Garden Bard
    Points
    15,003
    Posts
    892
    Quizzes
    6
    Quiz rate
    93.2 %
    Bookmarks
    10
    • February 4, 2023 at 6:06 PM
    • #1

    I have been translating sections of De Rerum Natura (and plan to continue), and I found something interesting I wanted to share, upon which I will likely build later. Lucretius discusses the difficult task of translating scientific Greek vocabulary into Latin metaphors, and I feel that (overwhelmingly) most translators gloss over Lucertius' specific innovations by employing the word "atom" or "atoms", which can be misleading for several reasons.

    Instead, I found that (usually) Munro best preserves Lucretius' linguistic innovations without resorting to contemporary scientific jargon or reducing the poetic flavor to the tone of a textbook.

    Latin Words For ATOMI (found in DRN I-VI):

    CORPORA — “first bodies” (Munro)

    CORPORA MATERIAI — “elements of matter” (Munro)

    CORPORA PRIMA — “first bodies” (Munro)

    CORPORIBUS PRIMIS — “first bodies” (Munro)

    CORPORIS — “first body” (Munro)

    CORPVSCVLA MATERIAI — “the minute bodies of matter” (Munro)

    ELEMENTA — “elements” (Munro)

    ELEMENTAQUE PRIMA — “prime elements” (Munro)

    ELEMENTIS — “elements” (Munro)

    FIGVRAS — “elements” (Munro)

    EXORDIA — “beginnings” (Munro)

    EXORDIA PRIMA — “first-beginnings” (Munro)

    EXORDIA RERVM — “beginnings of things” (Munro)

    GENITALIA CORPORA — “begetting bodies” (Munro)

    GENITALIA CORPORA REBVS — “begetting bodies of things” (Munro)

    MATERIAI CORPORA — “bodies of matter” (Munro)

    MATERIAI CORPORIBVS — “bodies of matter” (Munro)

    MATERIEM RERVM — “matter of things” (Munro)

    MATERIES AETERNA — “matter everlasting” (Munro)

    MINVTIS PERQVAM CORPORIBVS — “exceedingly minute bodies” (Munro)

    PRIMAS PARTIS — “primal parts” (Munro)

    PRIMASQVE FIGVRAS — “primary elements” (Munro)

    PRIMORDIA — “first-beginnings” (Munro)

    PRIMORDIA CORPORE — “first elements” (Munro)

    PRIMORDIA PRINCIPIORVM — “basic elements” (Humphries)

    PRIMORDIA RERVM — “first beginnings of things” (Munro)

    PRIMORDIAQVE — “firstlings” (Humphries)

    PRIMORVM — “first things” (Munro)

    PRINCIPIIS — “primary particles” (Smith)

    PRINCIPIIS RERVM — “primary elements of things” (Smith)

    PRINCIPIORVM — “primary elements” (Smith)

    PRINCIPIORVM CORPORIBVS — “primary particles” (Melville)

    PRINCIPIORVM CORPORIS ATQVE ANIMI — “the elements of the body and spirit” (Smith)

    SEMINA — “seeds” (Munro)

    SEMINA REBVS — “seeds of things” (Munro)

    SEMINA RERVM — “seeds of things” (Munro)

    SEMINAQVE — “seeds” (Smith)

    SEMINE — “seed” (Munro)

    SEMINIBVS — “seeds” (Munro)

    SEMINIS — “seeds” (Munro)

    RERVM PRIMORDIA — “first-beginnings of things”

    Of note, lines between 1000-1288 in Book V use SEMINA to refer to male ejaculate fluid, thus, employing literal imagery, creating a necessary, poetic comparison between the generation of the Earth and the generation of a Child through the same, insentient mechanisms; both of which are composed of clumps of eternal matter that get entangled while falling through the void, both of which lead to inextricably vast complexity, coming from simple, primordial seeds.

    I plan on reviewing III-VI next, but I thought that I-II would most efficiently provide me with the largest variety of phrases for "atoms" in the ancient context or "subatomic particles" in the modern meaning. (Edit: updated to sixerino)

    Edited 4 times, last by Eikadistes (February 12, 2023 at 1:11 AM).

  • Cassius
    05 - Administrator
    Points
    104,799
    Posts
    14,345
    Quizzes
    9
    Quiz rate
    100.0 %
    • February 4, 2023 at 7:13 PM
    • #2

    Thanks Nate. It's been quite a while since I read it, but I recall reading through Munro's notes to his translation, and in fact I think I was even looking at them each week as a means of dividing up episodes by topic when we were first going through the book on the podcast.

    I remember thinking to myself that it was clear to me that Munro was much more "pro-Epicurus" than was Bailey, so that it seemed to me that his translation decisions might be more trustworthy given his seeming sympathy to the material. When we look to compare the commentators on the texts to each other, Bailey probably has a wider range of facts to compare to since he lived significantly later than Munro, but I am thinking that Munro's translation decisions deserve a lot of respect. Going further I suppose that today's editions by Martin Ferguson Smith have even more material to draw from, and he smooths out a lot of the awkward text, but Munro to this day seems to me to be the one who was trying to be the most literal, and that makes him very valuable.

  • Eikadistes
    Garden Bard
    Points
    15,003
    Posts
    892
    Quizzes
    6
    Quiz rate
    93.2 %
    Bookmarks
    10
    • June 3, 2023 at 5:11 PM
    • #3

    I believe I have found several places in The Lives of Eminent Philosophers, Book X where atoms are referred to something other than ἄτομος (and declensions thereof). Here are those found in Ep. Her. and Pyth.:

    ATOMA — “elements” (Bailey), “particles” (Munro)

    ATOMOI — “atoms” (Bailey)

    ATOMOIΣ — “atoms” (Bailey)

    ATOMOΣ — “atom” (Bailey)

    ATOMOYΣ — “first beginnings”, “atoms” (Bailey)

    ATOMΩMON — “atoms” (Bailey)

    ATOMΩN — “atoms” (Bailey)

    ATOMῼ — “atom” (Bailey)

    Here are additional words (I believe) used in extant texts to refer to the eternal, indivisible particles, namely, declensions of μέρος (méros or "parts"), ὄγκος (ónkos or "mass"), and λεπτός (leptós or "minute").

    ΛEΠTOMEPHΣ — “fine particles” (Hicks)

    ΣXHMATIΣMOΣ — “atoms” (Hicks)

    ΣXHMATIΣMOY — “atoms” (Hicks)

    MEPIΣIN — “certain particles” (Hicks)

    OMOYPHΣIN — “certain particles” (Hicks)

    OΓKOI — “particles” (Hicks)

    OΓKOYΣ — “atoms” or “parts” (Hicks)

    OΓKΩN — “particles” (Hicks)

    Have you come across any other words in ancient Greek that refer to "atoms"?

    Edited 2 times, last by Eikadistes (June 7, 2023 at 11:00 AM).

  • Joshua
    05 - Administrator
    Points
    15,066
    Posts
    1,910
    Quizzes
    3
    Quiz rate
    95.8 %
    • June 3, 2023 at 5:42 PM
    • #4

    I see that μέρος (along with ὁμοῖος) is part of the word homeomeria, the idea that everything that exists is made of little particles like itself. Bone is made of bone particles, fire of fire particles, wood of wood particles, etc.

    This in contrast to the ideas of the atomists, who thought that a finite set of atomic types, with an infinite number of each type, made up everything and granted their attributes to the compounds they were part of.

    It was this latter idea that George Santayana described as "perhaps the greatest thought that mankind has ever hit upon."

  • Eikadistes
    Garden Bard
    Points
    15,003
    Posts
    892
    Quizzes
    6
    Quiz rate
    93.2 %
    Bookmarks
    10
    • June 9, 2023 at 7:32 AM
    • #5

    I also note his use of ΣΠEPMATA or σπέρματα (spérmata, "seeds") in The Lives of Eminent Philosopher X.74

    This makes Lucretius' use of SEMINA more of a literal Greek-Latin translation and less of a poetic innovation.

Unread Threads

    1. Title
    2. Replies
    3. Last Reply
    1. Immutability of Epicurean school in ancient times 11

      • Thanks 1
      • TauPhi
      • July 28, 2025 at 8:44 PM
      • Uncategorized Discussion (General)
      • TauPhi
      • July 29, 2025 at 2:14 PM
    2. Replies
      11
      Views
      698
      11
    3. Eikadistes

      July 29, 2025 at 2:14 PM
    1. Recorded Statements of Metrodorus 11

      • Like 1
      • Cassius
      • July 28, 2025 at 7:44 AM
      • Hermarchus
      • Cassius
      • July 28, 2025 at 7:23 PM
    2. Replies
      11
      Views
      588
      11
    3. Cassius

      July 28, 2025 at 7:23 PM
    1. Philodemus' "On Anger" - General - Texts and Resources 20

      • Like 1
      • Cassius
      • April 1, 2022 at 5:36 PM
      • Philodemus On Anger
      • Cassius
      • July 8, 2025 at 7:33 AM
    2. Replies
      20
      Views
      7.7k
      20
    3. Kalosyni

      July 8, 2025 at 7:33 AM

Finding Things At EpicureanFriends.com

What's the best strategy for finding things on EpicureanFriends.com? Here's a suggested search strategy:

  • First, familiarize yourself with the list of forums. The best way to find threads related to a particular topic is to look in the relevant forum. Over the years most people have tried to start threads according to forum topic, and we regularly move threads from our "general discussion" area over to forums with more descriptive titles.
  • Use the "Search" facility at the top right of every page. Note that the search box asks you what section of the forum you'd like to search. If you don't know, select "Everywhere." Also check the "Search Assistance" page.
  • Use the "Tag" facility, starting with the "Key Tags By Topic" in the right hand navigation pane, or using the "Search By Tag" page, or the "Tag Overview" page which contains a list of all tags alphabetically. We curate the available tags to keep them to a manageable number that is descriptive of frequently-searched topics.

Frequently Used Forums

  • Frequently Asked / Introductory Questions
  • News And Announcements
  • Lucretius Today Podcast
  • Physics (The Nature of the Universe)
  • Canonics (The Tests Of Truth)
  • Ethics (How To Live)
  • Against Determinism
  • Against Skepticism
  • The "Meaning of Life" Question
  • Uncategorized Discussion
  • Comparisons With Other Philosophies
  • Historical Figures
  • Ancient Texts
  • Decline of The Ancient Epicurean Age
  • Unsolved Questions of Epicurean History
  • Welcome New Participants
  • Events - Activism - Outreach
  • Full Forum List

Latest Posts

  • Epicurean Isonomy In The Context Of Statements By Balbus As To Gradations In Life In Book 2 of "On the Nature of the Gods"

    Joshua August 7, 2025 at 11:46 PM
  • Welcome Hubblefanboy!

    Cassius August 7, 2025 at 6:08 PM
  • Episode 294 - TD24 - Responding Further To Cicero's attack on Absence of Pain as Pleasure - Not Yet Recorded

    Cassius August 7, 2025 at 4:00 PM
  • Episode 293 - TD23 - Cicero Accuses Epicurus Of Evasion In Calling "Absence of Pain" A "Pleasure"

    Don August 7, 2025 at 2:38 PM
  • Welcome ZarathustrasGarden!

    Rolf August 7, 2025 at 2:51 AM
  • Artisan Skill (Likely Similar to the Ancient Greek/Roman World)

    kochiekoch August 6, 2025 at 5:54 PM
  • Busts of Epicurus

    kochiekoch August 6, 2025 at 5:03 PM
  • Latest Lucretius Today Podcast - Episode 293 - Cicero Accuses Epicurus Of Evasion In Calling "Absence of Pain" a Pleasure

    Cassius August 6, 2025 at 3:39 PM
  • Reproduction of Venus by Canova

    Kalosyni August 6, 2025 at 3:22 PM
  • The Closing Paragraph of the Letter to Menoeceus

    Don August 6, 2025 at 2:39 PM

Key Tags By Topic

  • #Canonics
  • #Death
  • #Emotions
  • #Engagement
  • #EpicureanLiving
  • #Ethics
  • #FreeWill
  • #Friendship
  • #Gods
  • #Happiness
  • #HighestGood
  • #Images
  • #Infinity
  • #Justice
  • #Knowledge
  • #Physics
  • #Pleasure
  • #Soul
  • #Twentieth
  • #Virtue


Click Here To Search All Tags

To Suggest Additions To This List Click Here

Similar Threads

  • How would Epicurus view "differences from the start of life that are out of our control?"

    • Cassius
    • December 6, 2022 at 7:39 PM
    • Uncategorized Discussion (General)

Tags

  • Lucretius
  • De Rerum Natura

EpicureanFriends - Classical Epicurean Philosophy

  1. Home
    1. About Us
    2. Classical Epicurean Philosophy
  2. Wiki
    1. Getting Started
  3. Frequently Asked Questions
    1. Site Map
  4. Forum
    1. Latest Threads
    2. Featured Threads
    3. Unread Posts
  5. Texts
    1. Core Texts
    2. Biography of Epicurus
    3. Lucretius
  6. Articles
    1. Latest Articles
  7. Gallery
    1. Featured Images
  8. Calendar
    1. This Month At EpicureanFriends
Powered by WoltLab Suite™ 6.0.22
Style: Inspire by cls-design
Stylename
Inspire
Manufacturer
cls-design
Licence
Commercial styles
Help
Supportforum
Visit cls-design