PD19 And The Meaning Of No "Greater" Pleasure

    Quote from Don

    I'm trying to think of ways to get away from the vessel metaphor.


    Also I am wondering about getting entirely away from metaphors and just thinking about real life. When I first started studying Epicureanism and bringing some of the ideas into my life (back when I was living on the west coast and during all the earlier Covid uncertainties). I was setting an intention to bring in more enjoyment into my life -- and I would wake up in the morning and ask myself "How can I bring more pleasure into my life?" And it was often very simple things. I think it will also matter how one thinks of pleasure -- is it fun? is it sweetness? is it love? is it satisfaction? is it comfort? is it good health? is it a little food treat? or smelling roses or adding cinnamon to breakfast? (We might want to limit certain food treats/sweets to once a week so that they feel more special). And everyone will come up with different desires. And it is so much easier to seek out things by using a gut-level sense of what is needed for a happy life.

    Quote from Kalosyni

    Also I am wondering about getting entirely away from metaphors and just thinking about real life

    I like that. :) Make it practical!


    Quote from Kalosyni

    I would wake up in the morning and ask myself "How can I bring more pleasure into my life?"

    That's a good way to set your motivation and mindset.

    Quote from Kalosyni

    how one thinks of pleasure -- is it fun? is it sweetness? is it love? is it satisfaction? is it comfort? is it good health? is it a little food treat? or smelling roses or adding cinnamon to breakfast?

    I would say it's all of those. All those describe pleasure.


    As I think some more, I still am becoming enamored of the idea that a pleasurable life's foundation is a mind and body free from trouble, pain, and anxiety. Ataraxia and aponia. That's where it starts! That's the foundation upon we can build experiences of pleasure arising from natural desires, both necessary and unnecessary. Without that foundation, we are anxious that we won't be able to fulfill desires we want to choose; we're troubled that our desire won't completely fulfill our expectations; we fear the pleasure coming from our chosen desire won't last long enough. The fears, anxieties, and troubles can spiral out of control. If we have a sound mind in a healthy body, we can pluck the desires we find appealing with no mental anguish, large or small. If your mind is already at peace, sink your teeth into the ripe peach, experience the juice dripping down chin, close your eyes and taste the sensuous sweetness on your tongue. Experience the pleasure undimmed by some mental baggage because you're already at the limit of pleasure and the peach is varying that feeling.


    I admit I'm still working through this, but, Thank you Kalosyni for bringing us back to a practical real world perspective!

    Quote from Don

    Choosing natural but unnecessary *desires*

    No doubt some of you will notice I didn't include those desires neither natural nor necessary. That was deliberate on my part.

    Those are characterized by the scholia to PD29 as:

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    by the neither natural nor necessary he means desires for crowns and the erection of statues in one's honour

    It has been conjectured that Epicureans like Cassius Longinus et al were pursuing desires that were deemed "neither natural nor necessary" in their pursuit of politics or role in the Roman Civil War. I would posit this is not necessarily the case. My take is that the situation was disturbing to him in many respects. He wasn't (necessarily) looking for "crowns and the erection of statues in one's honour." I think there are parallels with Torquatus's Epicurean justifications for his ancestor's actions.

    For those unfamiliar, as I was, with Cassius Longinus:

    Gaius Cassius Longinus - Wikipedia
    en.wikipedia.org

    Quote from Don

    My take is that the situation was disturbing to him in many respects. He wasn't (necessarily) looking for "crowns and the erection of statues in one's honour." I think there are parallels with Torquatus's Epicurean justifications for his ancestor's actions.

    I think you are right. I have never personally been able to unpack the situation at the time of the Roman civil war to get a good picture of what was really going on. What does seem clear is that it was a time of great change within the Roman social structure, and those who wished the older structure to continue considered themselves so personally threatened by the changes that they were willing to go to war. I think you're absolutely right to separate "crowns and statues" from more real-world issues. It's hard to think of things that are more unnecessary to a happy life than "crowns and statues." I presume to a large degree those represent recognition "by the crowd" which Epicurus was notably on record as not holding in high regard.


    And while Cassius is best known for his part in the assassination, this part is equally interesting:


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    Cicero associates Cassius's new Epicureanism with a willingness to seek peace in the aftermath of the civil war between Caesar and Pompeius.[26] Miriam Griffin dates his conversion to as early as 48 BC, after he had fought on the side of Pompeius at the Battle of Pharsalus but decided to come home instead of joining the last holdouts of the civil war in Africa.[27] Momigliano placed it in 46 BC, based on a letter by Cicero to Cassius dated January 45.[28] Shackleton Bailey points to a date of two or three years earlier.[29]

    Quote from Don

    As I think some more, I still am becoming enamored of the idea that a pleasurable life's foundation is a mind and body free from trouble, pain, and anxiety. Ataraxia and aponia. That's where it starts! That's the foundation upon we can build experiences of pleasure arising from natural desires, both necessary and unnecessary. Without that foundation, we are anxious that we won't be able to fulfill desires we want to choose; we're troubled that our desire won't completely fulfill our expectations; we fear the pleasure coming from our chosen desire won't last long enough. The fears, anxieties, and troubles can spiral out of control. If we have a sound mind in a healthy body, we can pluck the desires we find appealing with no mental anguish, large or small. If your mind is already at peace, sink your teeth into the ripe peach, experience the juice dripping down chin, close your eyes and taste the sensuous sweetness on your tongue. Experience the pleasure undimmed by some mental baggage because you're already at the limit of pleasure and the peach is varying that feeling.

    I think that ataraxia and aponia are important, however I view them differently -- because modern life is really at odds with being "pain free or untroubled".


    We certainly wouldn't want to wait to be completely untroubled in order to enjoy life. In a given day we might have moments of feeling untroubled, but an active modern life will bring us into "stressful" moments. Also things can be a mix of pleasure and stress -- for example going to a coffeehouse can sometimes be too noisy (or unpleasing music is playing), but as long as there is over-all more pleasure than stress we will choose this activity. Also over time what might originally feel stressful can be adapted to.


    Also, it came to me early this morning, that life requires a certain amount of "striving" or work. Most people until they are retired work at a job to make money for the purpose of survival (there are stay-at-home moms which is a big job in itself). Striving brings with it a certain amount of stress, but hopefully we can find ways to adapt which isn't too stressful (or jobs which aren't too stressful). Then beyond this for people who are retired, life still needs some form of striving, or else the will to live diminishes. And the striving could be any type of interest or goal (big or small) which requires some effort but also feels engaging and important in some way. And striving will always bring with it a small amount of mental stress. I would say that it is very important to make sure the level of stress does not become overwhelming.


    So then for me "ataraxia and aponia" are focused toward creating more ease and comfort while still engaging in life -- and the amount of ease and comfort needed can vary from person to person, or from week to week.

    Quote

    we're troubled that our desire won't completely fulfill our expectations

    This is where I believe that certain "natural goods" are important -- such as the need for friendship/companionship (and all the enjoyments that come with it) which can make life situations feel better or less stressful or less disappointing.

    Quote from Kalosyni

    because modern life is really at odds with being "pain free or untroubled".


    Quote from Kalosyni

    Also, it came to me early this morning, that life requires a certain amount of "striving" or work.


    I think both of those observations are true now and to a large extent have always been true - even in Epicurus' time - and we have to understand him on the presumption that he understood that too, and he was not putting forth something that is unrealistic.


    Meaning NOT that we can attain those goals by ruthlessly diminishing desires and living in a cave on bread and water, but that Epicurus too understood the necessary stress and striving of life, and that he incorporated that into his advice. Epicurus himself never reached full absence of pain in body, and I bet he didn't in mind either. But he formulated a **goal** which helped him and us by providing something to shoot for, and that helps us calculate each step along the way.


    That's why in addition to word structures for the goal, we need music and art and even poetry to help get emotionally attached to and focused on the goal to see that it is worthwhile.

    Quote from Kalosyni

    This is where I believe that certain "natural goods" are important -- such as the need for friendship/companionship (and all the enjoyments that come with it) which can make life situations feel better or less stressful or less disappointing.

    The interpretation that I'm currently working with is that natural and necessary desires, such as friendship, are a priority. Fulfilling them is the bottom limit of the sweet spot. Once those are met, there's great pleasure to be had in pursuing a variety of desires, as long as we stay in the sweet spot and below the upper limit that is the vain desires. If the natural and necessary desires haven't been fulfilled, then it's a priority to work with them, although this will most likely be done concurrent with pursuing natural and unnecessary desires. In the process of sorting out all of these desires we determine what, for us as individuals, is natural and necessary and what is the icing on the cake. At least for me, it's a constant work in progress!

    I debated whether to respond to Kalosyni 's post above, but, the more I thought about it today, the more I wanted to share my perspective on some of her thoughts. I am not saying either of us is "right" or "wrong," but I'm sharing my perspective. Please, Kalosyni , do not take any of this personally or as an ad hominem attack. It is sincerely not meant in that way! You bring a thoughtful, curious, personal perspective to this forum which I greatly appreciate. I hope I do the same and that my response below is in an Epicurean spirit of open, frank discussion.

    Quote from Kalosyni

    I think that ataraxia and aponia are important, however I view them differently -- because modern life is really at odds with being "pain free or untroubled".

    My first thought on reading this was: If modern life - in fact, life in any time - is at odds with being "pain free or untroubled," why do we find this acceptable? I don't want to think that "that's just the way things are." I don't want to accept that.

    I want to envision a way of living in the modern world in which my mind *can* be untroubled, in which I can face any issue that comes up with composure and clear thinking. I want to think it's possible to assess every choice before me without mental anxiety or worry or distress. That's what ataraxia is about for me. It is an achievable way of experiencing the world here and now. It's not some ideal, Platonic, unattainable state. I may not have it all the time, but I can see it as a goal to work toward and catch glimpses of it so I know it's real.

    Same with aponia. Epicurus obviously couldn't have meant it as a literally "pain-free existence" because he tells us he was in excruciating pain at the time of his death. The only way to not feel pain is without sensation, and if one is without sensation, you're already dead. But he did say it was possible to experience something. He describes it in PD3 as "Where that which gives pleasure exists, during the time it is present, there is neither pain nor that which causes pain in body or mind nor either of these together." The word for pain is actually άλγος "pain (of either mind or body)", but also sorrow, trouble, grief, distress, woe. And aponia is actually from ἄπονος (aponos) which has connotations of "freedom from toil or trouble." So, (as DeWitt says it) it's the whole "sound mind in a sound body" idea. We can also work toward a healthy body that doesn't give us trouble. We're going to have some aches and pains as we grow old, but maintaining health will alleviate some of that trouble.

    I think Epicurus is also suggesting we toil too much and trouble ourselves too much. I need to go back and re-read the full Property Management by Philodemus, but I seem to remember there are pertinent sections in there on that topic.

    Quote from Kalosyni

    We certainly wouldn't want to wait to be completely untroubled in order to enjoy life.

    I agree completely, and I think Epicurus calls us to not wait to experience pleasure and to enjoy life. But I don't think we have to be "completely untroubled" to get a taste of what it might be like to live untroubled.

    Quote from Kalosyni

    an active modern life will bring us into "stressful" moments.

    Quote from Kalosyni

    things can be a mix of pleasure and stress -- for example going to a coffeehouse can sometimes be too noisy (or unpleasing music is playing), but as long as there is over-all more pleasure than stress we will choose this activity. Also over time what might originally feel stressful can be adapted to.

    I couldn't put my finger on what bothered me with these, but I think it's the emphasis on "stress" and "stressful" here. I suggest replacing "stress" with "pain" to see how that feels. I can certainly see how "things can be a mix of pleasure and pain"; but, to me, the word "stress" adds an emotional dimension - "stress" is a way of adding our emotional reaction to the immediate feeling of pain. I'm not sure that's necessary if we're aiming at the (eventual) goal of well-being or ataraxia and aponia or happiness or completely pleasurable life. If sitting in the coffeehouse is too painful, move to a different coffeehouse. If the music can be ignored or one puts earbuds in to block the noise, do that.

    So, I agree with the second part of that excerpt but again, I would advocate for not adding the emotional baggage of "stress". If one thinks of it as "stress" or anxiety or annoyance or something else, I think that feeds on itself. Pain is simply negative feeling without further judgement. If the pain is to be experienced to experience a greater pleasure, then sit with it. If the pain is simply painful, do everything to rid yourself of it. There is no virtue to "grin and bear it" for the sake of grinning and bearing it.

    Quote from Kalosyni

    life requires a certain amount of "striving" or work. Most people until they are retired work at a job to make money for the purpose of survival (there are stay-at-home moms which is a big job in itself). Striving brings with it a certain amount of stress, but hopefully we can find ways to adapt which isn't too stressful (or jobs which aren't too stressful). Then beyond this for people who are retired, life still needs some form of striving, or else the will to live diminishes. And the striving could be any type of interest or goal (big or small) which requires some effort but also feels engaging and important in some way. And striving will always bring with it a small amount of mental stress. I would say that it is very important to make sure the level of stress does not become overwhelming.

    "Striving" struck the same chord in me as "stress/stressful." It will be a little less than a decade until I can consider retirement. I try to not constantly associate my job with stress, striving, and survival, although I admit there are days and situations that cause me pain, mostly mental. However, that again to me is an argument for working toward a mind that can think clearly and a body that isn't in pain. That word "striving" to me conjures Protestant work ethic, "idle hands are the devil's plaything," and similar themes. We can work toward goals, personal and professional, that aren't characterized by mental stress and striving. To me, the last sentence sums up the issue: "it is very important to make sure the level of stress does not become overwhelming." The way to make sure the "level of stress does not become overwhelming" is to cultivate the very freedom from trouble in the mind for which Epicurus appears to advocate.

    Quote from Don

    My first thought on reading this was: If modern life - in fact, life in any time - is at odds with being "pain free or untroubled," why do we find this acceptable? I don't want to think that "that's just the way things are." I don't want to accept that.

    I want to envision a way of living in the modern world in which my mind *can* be untroubled, in which I can face any issue that comes up with composure and clear thinking.

    That's great and I also think it is highly dependent upon life circumstances. So perhaps your circumstances are supportive of living untroubled -- once one is settled down in life and lives in a happy and safe community/city, is secure with one's living situation (owns one's own home), feels fully confident in financial security (with enough savings to last till the end of one's life) has a safety net of good family and friends, and has no doubts about future well-being. Anyone who doesn't have any of these will have to use the very painful attempt of a "mind over matter" approach and try to repress their worries if they want to feel at peace -- perhaps this is why we have religion (and stoicism) as one way to try to deal with a troubled mind.


    And as such it may appear that that Epicureanism is for the "well-to-do" person, but I don't agree. I see pleasure as an antidote -- one pursues "pleasure as medicine" -- and then in this way the philosophy can be applied regardless of one's level of wealth.

    Quote from Don

    I suggest replacing "stress" with "pain" to see how that feels. I can certainly see how "things can be a mix of pleasure and pain"; but, to me, the word "stress" adds an emotional dimension - "stress" is a way of adding our emotional reaction to the immediate feeling of pain.

    Good point here, and yes it would be better to be more specific with words for emotions and feelings. Anxiety, fear, worry, feeling tense, anxious, frustrated -- immediate reactions followed by further reactions -- and then further reactions might be worry that one can't change one's circumstances.

    Quote from Kalosyni

    it may appear that that Epicureanism is for the "well-to-do" person, but I don't agree. I see pleasure as an antidote -- one pursues "pleasure as medicine" -- and then in this way the philosophy can be applied regardless of one's level of wealth.

    For example, it may appear that there is no way to change or improve one's situation -- but if 10 years later things CAN change -- what do you do while you are waiting to get there? You enjoy life the best you can!


    I realize my own life reflects a situation in which I was not happy (living in an unpleasant house) and it took me 8 years to figure out what to do differently, to start moving in a different direction.


    Don, I still stand by my word choice of "striving" -- because some of us need to choose to strive toward happiness, and strive to move toward pleasure. I suppose another choice of words would be "put in some effort" -- because we need to put in some effort into creating a good life.

    Quote from Kalosyni

    perhaps your circumstances are supportive of living untroubled -- once one is settled down in life and lives in a happy and safe community/city, is secure with one's living situation (owns one's own home), feels fully confident in financial security (with enough savings to last till the end of one's life) has a safety net of good family and friends, and has no doubts about future well-being. Anyone who doesn't have any of these will have to use the very painful attempt of a "mind over matter" approach and try to repress their worries if they want to feel at peace -- perhaps this is why we have religion (and stoicism) as one way to try to deal with a troubled mind.


    To me I see no conflict between striving and being at peace. In fact it is ONLY if you have striven as hard as you can to attain your goals that you can really be at peace with yourself, especially as you near the end of your life.


    I see nothing in the life histories of any historically known Epicurean that they had any approach other than to work as earnestly and as hard as they could to attain the kind of lives that they wanted to live.


    So I see no necessary contradiction between "striving" and "pleasure." The issue always come back to whether you are making the right choices and avoidances to produce the result that you want. "The right choices" certainly can involve "striving" and working and even voluntarily enduring stress.


    I think Jefferson had it right in the letter to William Short:


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    I take the liberty of observing that you are not a true disciple of our master Epicurus in indulging the indolence to which you say you are yielding. One of his canons, you know, was that “that indulgence which prevents a greater pleasure, or produces a greater pain, is to be avoided.” Your love of repose will lead, in its progress, to a suspension of healthy exercise, a relaxation of mind, an indifference to everything around you, and finally to a debility of body, and hebetude of mind, the farthest of all things from the happiness which the well-regulated indulgences of Epicurus ensure; fortitude, you know is one of his four cardinal virtues. That teaches us to meet and surmount difficulties; not to fly from them, like cowards; and to fly, too, in vain, for they will meet and arrest us at every turn of our road.

    Thank you for the thought-provoking responses!

    Quote from Kalosyni

    That's great and I also think it is highly dependent upon life circumstances. So perhaps your circumstances are supportive of living untroubled --.

    I think being "untroubled" or having peace of mind regardless of circumstances is the goal of "philosophy" or seeking wisdom. But let me expand on that idea...

    Quote from Kalosyni

    once one is settled down in life and lives in a happy and safe community/city, is secure with one's living situation (owns one's own home), feels fully confident in financial security (with enough savings to last till the end of one's life) has a safety net of good family and friends, and has no doubts about future well-being. Anyone who doesn't have any of these will have to use the very painful attempt of a "mind over matter" approach and try to repress their worries if they want to feel at peace

    I'm not sure my circumstances are all as rosy as you might assume from the list you've provided about your assessment of my circumstances, but that's all I'll say about those. If we wait to have peace of mind until our lives are somehow subjectively perfect to an outside observer (or to ourselves), it will never happen. We humans will always find some goal unattainable, some aspect unsatisfactory, and we can think "If I can resolve that, then I can live "untroubled" or to have "peace of mind."" My position is that "peace of mind" or ataraxia is achievable regardless of circumstances. To me, that is the goal of a practical philosophy which one lives. It's not "mind over matter" or ignoring problems or wearing rose-colored glasses. It's assessing each situation - each choice and avoidance - with a clear mind, with practical wisdom, and with a clear goal in mind...which, in the case of Epicurus' philosophy, is to lead a more pleasurable life tomorrow than I did today. I often - always! - fall short of that goal, but it's a goal nonetheless that I continually try to keep in mind even though I am a novice at best this Epicurean gig.

    Quote from Kalosyni

    And as such it may appear that that Epicureanism is for the "well-to-do" person, but I don't agree. I see pleasure as an antidote -- one pursues "pleasure as medicine" -- and then in this way the philosophy can be applied regardless of one's level of wealth.

    I agree that Epicureanism is not a philosophy for the "well-to-do" only. His philosophy attracted the most down-trodden members of ancient Greek society but also kings and wealthy Romans. So, I also fully agree with you that "the philosophy can be applied regardless of one's level of wealth." That is my point in the previous paragraph. I would simply substitute "level of wealth" for "circumstances" and say ""the philosophy can be applied regardless of one's circumstances." Do we end up agreeing on that?

    Quote from Kalosyni

    For example, it may appear that there is no way to change or improve one's situation -- but if 10 years later things CAN change -- what do you do while you are waiting to get there? You enjoy life the best you can!

    Absolutely! You carpe the diem while the sun shines to mix metaphors. But I wouldn't encourage people to think of their lives as "waiting to get" something. The idea is to enjoy the little things as well as the big things every day.

    Quote from Kalosyni

    I realize my own life reflects a situation in which I was not happy (living in an unpleasant house) and it took me 8 years to figure out what to do differently, to start moving in a different direction.

    I'm sincerely glad that you were able to get out of an unhappy situation! Inertia, habit, and complacency are powerful forces (speaking from personal experiences both large and small).


    Quote from Kalosyni

    I still stand by my word choice of "striving" -- because some of us need to choose to strive toward happiness, and strive to move toward pleasure. I suppose another choice of words would be "put in some effort" -- because we need to put in some effort into creating a good life.

    I respect your decision to stand by your word. I personally have negative feelings toward that word for various reasons, so I may be inferring connotations that you're not intending. I like "put in some effort".

    That said, Epicurus, to me, calls us to consider carefully what we are striving or struggling for. Is the goal worth the effort? Will the goal actually bring us happiness and well-being and pleasure, or is it a goal imposed on us by indoctrination of culture or empty desires?


    I appreciate your willingness to engage on these topics. Your responses help me sharpen my mind and ask myself what it is I believe. These are some fundamental questions!

    There’s so much good in here, but I want to just specifically pull out this one quote “Pain is simply negative feeling without further judgement.“

    I think that’s great, and the kind of practical thing that I could actually take and put into action in my life immediately. It’s reminiscent of the quote “pain is unavoidable, suffering is optional” which I have always really liked. The epicurean goal is to eliminate all pain but… sometimes things happen, and also I’m super clumsy so sometimes I run into a door frame or kick a wall and stub my toe while walking down the hall. There’s so much to be said for just accepting and feeling that pain (when it is unavoidable) and not ADDING to it with judgments or resistance to feeling it, which is when it goes beyond just pain, and becomes suffering, or stress, or anxiety, or any of these other things that are generally viewed as being problems to be solved beyond the pain itself.

    This conversation is also bringing to mind another common saying that I was going to post on the forum anyway, because I see some problems with it.

    “Nothing in life worth having comes easy”


    My thought is that Epicurus tells us literally the opposite. There are sometimes we will chose pain to find a greater pleasure (or avoid a greater pain) but in general the things we need come easy. I suspect this kind of saying representing the Protestant work ethic is actually problematic because it makes it seem like the good life is out of your grasp (for now at least - you just need to work harder!!) where for most of us it is within reach. We don’t need to work harder, we just have to pluck it. I don’t remember now where the “plucking” language came from but I do really like it.


    (This isn’t to downplay the difficulties of dealing with things like poverty or abuse, but increasing effort is rarely going to improve those situations anyway)


    I’d love to hear other thoughts.

    Although anyone may of course use the words they want, I have to side with Don when it comes to the word striving. It has a relatively positive connotation these days (in a world where it is believed that anything worth having is difficult to obtain), but it is etymologically related to strife and I just FEEL that element of discord and contention in the word. It feels unnatural as though anything that would require me to strive would be something that is at odds with my nature and I’m trying to work through that to force it to fit anyway. (Noting of course that sometime people have to do exactly this in order to provide for themselves - I still don’t see it as a positive but as unfortunately unavoidable in certain situations)


    Having looked into the dictionary definitions a bit, I think I really like the verb “endeavor” which yes, also implies exertion, but in a way that feels less unpleasant from the start, and even adventurous and exciting. It’s the exertion that allows me to feel pleasure and accomplishment even while it’s hard work and sometimes painful.

    It may have been mentioned earlier in this thread, but Empedocles (I think) saw the universe as being made up of Love and Strife. That, as I recall, was one of the pre-Socratic notions that eventually led to atomism.


    Maybe a more directly pertinent thought is the contrast between "pleasure ethics" and "duty ethics". For most of my life I was living by duty ethics, although I wasn't consciously aware of it. Duty ethics is a great way to grow the economy and keep the worker bees buzzing, and it takes the stance that pleasure will be the downfall of everything. Pleasure ethics, on the other hand, is a great way to live life in a manner that is connected to physical reality. No vengeful gods needed. This is one more way that Epicurus endeavored (as it were) to counteract the destructive influence of Plato.