Thank you! Don for explaining the ancient Greek words used, very helpful.
Reason I was asking was that I thought that perhaps "terrible" was refering to "unnatural and unnecessary" - and that came out of my idea that "the pains from the unnatural and unnecessary are easy to avoid" - but looks like I was way off on that.
And as you are saying, the correct translation is: "the terrible is easily endured".
Thank you! Don for explaining the ancient Greek words used, very helpful.
Reason I was asking was that I thought that perhaps "terrible" was refering to "unnatural and unnecessary" - and that came out of my idea that "the pains from the unnatural and unnecessary are easy to avoid" - but looks like I was way off on that.
And as you are saying, the correct translation is: "the terrible is easily endured".
One thing I'll note is that EYEKKAPTEPHTON is used in opposition to TAΓAΘON (which, as Don has demonstrated in the past, can appropriately be expressed as "The Good", which is Pleasure), so in this case, "the terrible" or "bad", I think, is referring to the general feeling of Pain.
in this case, "the terrible" or "bad", I think, is referring to the general feeling of Pain.
Agreed. I've always found it interesting that "to deinon" is used. With tagathon literally being a contraction of the definite article (the) with agathon (good), to deinon simply can't be contracted since there aren't two vowels together: to deinon. And note what the usual algos refers to "pain (of either mind or body), sorrow, trouble, grief, distress, woe." That's a pretty wide net!
One thing I'll note is that EYEKKAPTEPHTON is used in opposition to TAΓAΘON (which, as Don has demonstrated in the past, can appropriately be expressed as "The Good", which is Pleasure), so in this case, "the terrible" or "bad", I think, is referring to the general feeling of Pain.
Thanks to you guys for pointing this out. The common discussion across the internet as "the terrible is easy to endure" is probably in my view the most damaging aspect of talking loosely about it.
The point of PD3 and PD4 from which these are derivations seems to me to be almost certainly, as you are stating, to be directed at "the good" or "what is good in life" and "the bad" or "what is bad in life," in a generic and philosophical way. Give the wide net that is included with Epicurus' view of "pleasure" then there's a corresponding wide net regarding "pain." The thrust of Epicurus' views on pleasure and pain are completely defensible and persuasive when put placed in its full philosophic context. In the form it's trumpeted widely, as for example in today's Wikipedia, I continue to see its use as an abomination.
No need to go through all this again but we continuously have new people, so might as well link to my prior thread here for those who have not seen it.
Have NOT read yet. Posting for reference:
I need to find a better translation and change that WP article
If you can that would be great!
Don I noticed that in my prior thread here (from several years ago) I don't think you added any comment. I think several of my links came from or through you, but since you are one of the most-well-versed on the text issues, if you have anything new to add to bring that thread up to date, please do.
In addition to the translation issue I think it is almost or more an issue that we do not have the immediate before or after context of these lines. This lack of context accentuates what I personally think is the ultimate issue, that the work in largest context appears to concern a dispute among Epicureans in which over-simplification and not paying sufficient attention to reading the original texts is a criticism being leveled by Philodemus against others.
Without the before or after context we have no way of knowing whether this formulation was being cited approvingly or disparagingly. It's for that reason that I don't "blame" Philodemus for the confusion that we now have to deal with. If more context is discovered at some point we may find out the truth someday, but in the meantime this excerpt is the *only* statement of this formulation in the ancient texts, and it is a shame that it is being presented to the world as being as worthy of respect as if it were a well-attested statement of Epicurus himself.
Not saying that you have any new input on these issues but for others reading along intermittently maybe at some point someone will make new connections that help us with it, once they are aware of the issues.
I think it is almost or more an issue that we do not have the immediate before or after context of these lines.
The Tetraphármakos is in P.Herc. 1005 column five, and we do have most of columns 2 - 7, but the context is still difficult to work out.
Bryan do you know if there is a translation of what exists most closely before and after this passage? I don't think I have been able to piece together anything coherent about that, much less any indication of how much is lost between anything that remains and this particular passage.
With tagathon literally being a contraction of the definite article (the) with agathon (good), to deinon simply can't be contracted since there are two vowels together: to deinon.
Do you mean aren't two vowels here, Don? I don't know the rules in Greek. Latin often uses verbal elision when two vowels adjoin; genus omne animantum from Lucretius, for instance. Spoken as omnanimantum.
do you know if there is a translation of what exists most closely before and after this passage?
I have never seen it translated anywhere. I have the next column, number 6, in Epicurea -- it is where Philodemus mentions the rumors that "Leóntion and another ‹companion› are mentioned in the treatise – and that the lover of Idomeneús was Nikídion, and of Leonteús was Mammárion, and of Hérmarchos was Dēmētría – and such a kind also was Polýaenus, tutor of Pythoclês."
You know Bryan (and Don et al), whether as part of the Epicurea or otherwise, I think it would be a major contribution if we could combine our efforts and come up with a complete version of whatever is left of the scroll on which the Tetrapharmakos is taken. We don't even seem to have an agreed upon title, and I gather all it is referred to is P. Herc. 1005
It would be a major contribution if we could put together a page on
"Translation Of The Surviving Text of P. Herc. 1005" and begin to put all that we know about this scroll in context.
Is any of it of substance translated in a Sedley or other text? Where would we begin?
With tagathon literally being a contraction of the definite article (the) with agathon (good), to deinon simply can't be contracted since there are two vowels together: to deinon.
Do you mean aren't two vowels here, Don? I don't know the rules in Greek. Latin often uses verbal elision when two vowels adjoin; genus omne animantum from Lucretius, for instance. Spoken as omnanimantum.
Thanks! Corrected!
We don't even seem to have an agreed upon title, and I gather all it is referred to is P. Herc. 1005
There isn't one. The title at the end of the scroll is just fragmented: ΠΡΟΣ ΤΟΥΣ.... which is open to interpretation. Is it Against the ... Or For the... or Concerning the... No way to know. P. Herc. 1005 is the safest designation.
Relevant to the above discussion (with translation of the tetrapharmakos I personally like much better than the common 'wikipedia' one).
I have always had the most difficulty with that final line of the tetrapharmakos. Not all pain is “easy” to bear – not for me, or likely anyone. The comments about context are, I think, on the mark. And the context, for me, is Epicurean practices (therapies) to alleviate that pain as much as possible – to make it bearable. Epicurus on his death bed provides an example. And that, I think, is the superiority of Epicurean philosophy (therapy) over the Cyrenaics: recognition that mental pleasures (e.g., focus on memories) can be called upon to alleviate physical pain. And that is something that I have been able to do.
I just wanted to throw in this rhyme for the sake of preference (its origin is unknown to me).
But, if we're gonna end with "easily endured" ...
... it's begging to be rhymed with "easily procured". 
