Supernatural and the Senses

Quote from Kalosyni

He said: "Don't do anything unless you are as happy as a child feeding a duck."

I had a judge telll me one time that his best advice in life was "When in doubt, don't."

Of course he was widely considered in the community to be neither a great judge nor having a lot of personal insight

The problem is that we sometimes have to take risks knowing that our decisions may backfire on us. Figuring out how to do that prudently in itself would be a great topic -- "how to evaluate risk" -- because I don't think Epicurus would or did recommend avoiding all risk. That's another way of framing the question that is often asked as "Should we pursue ONLY the natural and necessary desires?"

Quote from Cassius

The problem is that we sometimes have to take risks knowing that our decisions may backfire on us.

I shouldn't have said it that way because this phrasing begs the question. We don't "have" to take risks in many cases. We choose whether to do so or not. We could simply choose to live in our caves on bread and water and forgo the possibility of many activities that may bring significant pleasure but at the cost of significant pain. If "all pain is to be avoided at all cost" is the formula, then the cave-dwelling life would be a logical option. But that doesn't appear to me to be the formula Epicurus taught, nor does it make sense to me that he would have taught it.

Quote from Cassius

The problem is that we sometimes have to take risks knowing that our decisions may backfire on us.

Yes.

I realise that I need to more clearly explain: "Don't do anything unless you are as happy as a child feeding a duck"...I need to add...

This is in reference to interactions with people, for example if someone asks you to do something, that you don't say "yes" out of a feeling of duty or obligation, but instead get clear about what you are wanting...and so you may then decide to say "no" to their request. And when you say "yes" you know clearly why and see that it is because of mutual needs being fulfilled, or because you trust in the reciprocity of the relationship and see how saying "yes" will lead to giving pleasure to the other person (and anticipating their pleasure also gives you pleasure).

Quote from Cassius

We don't "have" to take risks in many cases. We choose whether to do so or not. We could simply choose to live in our caves on bread and water and forgo the possibility of many activities that may bring significant pleasure but at the cost of significant pain. If "all pain is to be avoided at all cost" is the formula, then the cave-dwelling life would be a logical option.

Okay, so in some situations the hedonic calculus comes out even...equal levels of pain and pleasure...and thinking about it further I begin to see that that is why there actually might be an emphasis on activities that reduce pain. Because if you have two options: Option A - the end result will be an equal amount of pleasure and pain...and Option B - more pleasure and less pain...then you choose option B.

I think an instance of this is marriage...people go into it thinking that there will be more pleasure than pain, but only if you are lucky will this be the case...if you can find a very compatible partner with a similar world-view, similar life goals, similar likes and dislikes, and similar disposition, who is an emotionally grounded and rationally thinking person, who is healthy and strong, who knows how to problem-solve, who has good social skills and emotional intelligence, and who is kind, patient, generous, and loving.

So let's say two people with all these characteristics find each other and marry...it is possible that there will be more pleasure than pain. If any of these qualities are deficient then some problems will come up...and when they do, the pleasure and pain "hedonic calculus" will come out even...or could come out with more pain.

Quote from Matt

With the numbers of people in society who are otherwise detached from reality increasing steadily, the “casual” remarks about unfounded things are becoming much more irritating.

We need to join together to further the understanding of science and the scientific method, as well as uphold the materialist understanding of life. We need to talk about it and share about it with others, not as a "defense" (or out of anger) but rather out of enjoyment. So not forcing it on others, but being a witness to it and it's benefits. There more people that "think clearly" the better the world will become.

Quote from smoothiekiwi

if there's an equal amount of pain and pleasure connected with an act, I'd choose not to have it- because, in my subjective experience, pleasure doesn't "negate" pain at a 1:1 ratio.

This jostled my memory regarding marriage:

Quote

That “magic ratio” is 5 to 1. This means that for every negative interaction during conflict, a stable and happy marriage has five (or more) positive interactions.

“When the masters of marriage are talking about something important,” Dr. Gottman says, “they may be arguing, but they are also laughing and teasing and there are signs of affection because they have made emotional connections.”

On the other hand, unhappy couples tend to engage in fewer positive interactions to compensate for their escalating negativity. If the positive-to-negative ratio during conflict is 1-to-1 or less, that’s unhealthy, and indicates a couple teetering on the edge of divorce.

https://www.gottman.com/blog/the-magic…ording-science/

"I've seen somewhere a scientific experiment which determined that pain is worth four times the amount of pleasure. Means that when you experience pain, you'll need four times the amount of pleasure to feel as happy as before."

I would say that rules of thumb can be helpful but most frequently the ratings are so subjective that it's essential that the limits of thumbnails always be part of the conversation

I am not sure if this needs a new thread but I sense the topic is morphing to a variation of Joshua s "only the beginning theme."

The question is almost:." What do those of us who begin to get comfortable with the Epicurean worldview do with that knowledge? "

First and foremost that means using it to live happily ourselves, but then we should probably remember that the most important tool to live happily is friends.

We here are online friends but we need local friends at least as much.

So the topic always come back to how we can identify and/or cultivate our own local Epicurean friends.

We can't just always talk among ourselves and increase our knowledge of the texts. Once we have the outline and a basic understanding, we move from "General Officers" to the front lines.

And I think that points back to our needing to figure out our own variation of "Meetup groups" as Kalosyni and others have been discussing.

I think that part of the answer to these questions has to involve admitting that the world has changed a lot in the last few years.

Even until recently I gather people found out about each other through posting flyers at the library, or at the local college campus, or maybe posting an advertisement in the local newspapers.

None of that really is operational anymore. Even if we want to have a meeting of people in our subdivision or apartment complex, I gather that the first option nowadays is Zoom (or skype or whatever).

I can't think of any alternatives but to combine the two processes by working to identify people in a particular locality but expect that even then their primary communication means will be online.

So maybe the practical brainstorming needs to be figuring out how people are communicating and finding each other locally (maybe "Neighborhood" apps?) and figuring out a format where people in a particular locality can be invited to participate in zoom meetings that are fairly general in terms of Epicurean doctrine but also "local" in that everyone has a connection in generally living in a similar locality(?)

If that's the way forward, then that's going to take significant planning on how to preserve privacy and security and at the same time do something worthwhile.

Matt and I crossposted but are on the same wavelength. We'll need to work on and provide a "model" for people to go by. Even the gods couldn't create anything without a model!

Yes I have been talking with Kalosyni lately about the aborted (to date) efforts at epicuruscollege.com

I told her that I stopped pushing that forward in favor of the podcast, as I thought we needed more "content" before we could do course material.

I think that issue is now resolved, and it's now time to figure out how to develop courses for an online presentation that can be combined with local activity.