1. Home
    1. Start Here: Study Guide
    2. Community Standards And Posting Policies
    3. Terms of Use
    4. Moderator Team
    5. Website Overview
    6. Site Map
    7. Quizzes
    8. Articles
      1. Featured Articles
    9. All Blog Posts
      1. Elli's Blog / Articles
  2. Wiki
    1. Wiki Home
    2. FAQ
    3. Classical Epicureanism
    4. Files
    5. Search Assistance
    6. Not NeoEpicurean
    7. Foundations
    8. Navigation Outlines
    9. Reading List
    10. Key Pages
  3. Forum
    1. Full Forum List
    2. Welcome Threads
    3. Physics
    4. Canonics
    5. Ethics
    6. Forum Shortcuts
    7. Forum Navigation Map
    8. Featured
    9. Most Discussed
  4. Latest
    1. New Activity
    2. Latest Threads
    3. Dashboard
    4. Search By Tag
    5. Complete Tag List
  5. Podcast
    1. Lucretius Today Podcast
    2. Episode Guide
    3. Lucretius Today At Youtube
    4. EpicureanFriends Youtube Page
  6. Texts
    1. Overview
    2. Diogenes Laertius
    3. Principal Doctrines
    4. Vatican Collection
    5. Lucretius
    6. Herodotus
    7. Pythocles
    8. Menoeceus
    9. Fragments - Usener Collection
    10. Torquatus On Ethics
    11. Velleius On Gods
    12. Greek/Latin Help
  7. Gallery
    1. Featured images
    2. Albums
    3. Latest Images
    4. Latest Comments
  8. More
    1. Featured Content
    2. Calendar
      1. Upcoming Events List
      2. Zoom Meetings
      3. Sunday Zoom Meetings
    3. Logbook
    4. EF ToDo List
    5. Link-Database
  • Login
  • Register
  • Search
This Thread
  • Everywhere
  • This Thread
  • This Forum
  • Forum
  • Articles
  • Blog Articles
  • Files
  • Gallery
  • Events
  • Pages
  • Wiki
  • Help
  • FAQ
  • More Options

Welcome To EpicureanFriends.com!

"Remember that you are mortal, and you have a limited time to live, and in devoting yourself to discussion of the nature of time and eternity you have seen things that have been, are now, and are to come."

Sign In Now
or
Register a new account
  1. Home
    1. Start Here: Study Guide
    2. Community Standards And Posting Policies
    3. Terms of Use
    4. Moderator Team
    5. Website Overview
    6. Site Map
    7. Quizzes
    8. Articles
      1. Featured Articles
    9. All Blog Posts
      1. Elli's Blog / Articles
  2. Wiki
    1. Wiki Home
    2. FAQ
    3. Classical Epicureanism
    4. Files
    5. Search Assistance
    6. Not NeoEpicurean
    7. Foundations
    8. Navigation Outlines
    9. Reading List
    10. Key Pages
  3. Forum
    1. Full Forum List
    2. Welcome Threads
    3. Physics
    4. Canonics
    5. Ethics
    6. Forum Shortcuts
    7. Forum Navigation Map
    8. Featured
    9. Most Discussed
  4. Latest
    1. New Activity
    2. Latest Threads
    3. Dashboard
    4. Search By Tag
    5. Complete Tag List
  5. Podcast
    1. Lucretius Today Podcast
    2. Episode Guide
    3. Lucretius Today At Youtube
    4. EpicureanFriends Youtube Page
  6. Texts
    1. Overview
    2. Diogenes Laertius
    3. Principal Doctrines
    4. Vatican Collection
    5. Lucretius
    6. Herodotus
    7. Pythocles
    8. Menoeceus
    9. Fragments - Usener Collection
    10. Torquatus On Ethics
    11. Velleius On Gods
    12. Greek/Latin Help
  7. Gallery
    1. Featured images
    2. Albums
    3. Latest Images
    4. Latest Comments
  8. More
    1. Featured Content
    2. Calendar
      1. Upcoming Events List
      2. Zoom Meetings
      3. Sunday Zoom Meetings
    3. Logbook
    4. EF ToDo List
    5. Link-Database
  1. Home
    1. Start Here: Study Guide
    2. Community Standards And Posting Policies
    3. Terms of Use
    4. Moderator Team
    5. Website Overview
    6. Site Map
    7. Quizzes
    8. Articles
      1. Featured Articles
    9. All Blog Posts
      1. Elli's Blog / Articles
  2. Wiki
    1. Wiki Home
    2. FAQ
    3. Classical Epicureanism
    4. Files
    5. Search Assistance
    6. Not NeoEpicurean
    7. Foundations
    8. Navigation Outlines
    9. Reading List
    10. Key Pages
  3. Forum
    1. Full Forum List
    2. Welcome Threads
    3. Physics
    4. Canonics
    5. Ethics
    6. Forum Shortcuts
    7. Forum Navigation Map
    8. Featured
    9. Most Discussed
  4. Latest
    1. New Activity
    2. Latest Threads
    3. Dashboard
    4. Search By Tag
    5. Complete Tag List
  5. Podcast
    1. Lucretius Today Podcast
    2. Episode Guide
    3. Lucretius Today At Youtube
    4. EpicureanFriends Youtube Page
  6. Texts
    1. Overview
    2. Diogenes Laertius
    3. Principal Doctrines
    4. Vatican Collection
    5. Lucretius
    6. Herodotus
    7. Pythocles
    8. Menoeceus
    9. Fragments - Usener Collection
    10. Torquatus On Ethics
    11. Velleius On Gods
    12. Greek/Latin Help
  7. Gallery
    1. Featured images
    2. Albums
    3. Latest Images
    4. Latest Comments
  8. More
    1. Featured Content
    2. Calendar
      1. Upcoming Events List
      2. Zoom Meetings
      3. Sunday Zoom Meetings
    3. Logbook
    4. EF ToDo List
    5. Link-Database
  1. EpicureanFriends - Home of Classical Epicurean Philosophy
  2. Forum
  3. Modern Books, Articles, and Videos
  4. Articles Prepared By Professional Academics
  • Sidebar
  • Sidebar

Contemplative Isolation and Constructive Sociability in the Epicurean Tradition

  • Don
  • October 11, 2021 at 10:33 PM
  • Go to last post

SUNDAY WEEKLY ZOOM - 12:30 PM EDT - Ancient Text Study: De Rerum Natura by Lucretius -- Read the post for our December 7, 2025 meeting -- or find out how to attend.

 

  • Online
    Don
    ΕΠΙΚΟΥΡΕΙΟΣ (Epicurist)
    Points
    41,665
    Posts
    5,796
    Quizzes
    9
    Quiz rate
    92.8 %
    • October 11, 2021 at 10:33 PM
    • #1
    A View From the Garden: Contemplative Isolation and Constructive Sociability in Lucretius and in the Epicurean Tradition, in R. Matuszewski (ed.), Being Alone in Antiquity: Ancient Ideas and Experiences of Misanthropy, Isolation, and Solitude, Berlin
    N.B. These are the uncorrected proofs of the above-mentioned article. It is often assumed that Epicurean philosophy and its foremost Roman prophet, T.…
    www.academia.edu

    Fabio Tutrone. A View from the Garden: Contemplative Isolation and Constructive Sociability in Lucretius and in the Epicurean Tradition

    An interesting paper that lays out a thought-provoking perspective on a number of points. Haven't read it completely, but I liked the parts I've read so far including a nuanced view of "live unknown." The author talks about its contextual nature.

  • Online
    Don
    ΕΠΙΚΟΥΡΕΙΟΣ (Epicurist)
    Points
    41,665
    Posts
    5,796
    Quizzes
    9
    Quiz rate
    92.8 %
    • October 12, 2021 at 5:04 AM
    • #2

    "Roman readers seem to have discussed with fervor Cicero’s work On the Commonwealth (De Re Publica), which strongly advocated the importance of political commitment as an altruistic, law-abiding service and warned against the risks of contemplative isolation.² Cicero’s main target in the first polemical part of On the Commonwealth were the Epicureans, who – as Cicero himself says elsewhere – took Italy by storm and founded several communities of wisdom-practitioners in imitation of Epicurus’ Athenian garden."

    I was unaware of this work by Cicero. Maybe worth finding, and it may be worth finding out if this was written pre- or post-de Finibus. So, Cicero really didn't like Epicureanism even with Epicurean friends.

    Edited once, last by Don: Corrected formatting (October 12, 2021 at 6:24 AM).

  • Online
    Don
    ΕΠΙΚΟΥΡΕΙΟΣ (Epicurist)
    Points
    41,665
    Posts
    5,796
    Quizzes
    9
    Quiz rate
    92.8 %
    • October 12, 2021 at 5:14 AM
    • #3

    "In Epicurus’ own words, “the same conviction that inspires confidence that no evil is eternal or even enduring, also makes us aware that in our limited conditions of life friendship affords us the most perfect security”.²⁴"

    Tutrone's translation of PD28

    Edited once, last by Don: Corrected formatting (October 12, 2021 at 6:25 AM).

  • Online
    Don
    ΕΠΙΚΟΥΡΕΙΟΣ (Epicurist)
    Points
    41,665
    Posts
    5,796
    Quizzes
    9
    Quiz rate
    92.8 %
    • October 12, 2021 at 5:20 AM
    • #4

    "...the Epicurean quest for enduring (or ‘katastematic’) pleasure could not adopt any other strategy than the rational construction of a mutually supportive community"

    I don't know whether I've read the translation of katastematic as "enduring" before. I find that an intriguing nuance.

    Edited once, last by Don: Corrected formatting (October 12, 2021 at 6:26 AM).

  • Online
    Don
    ΕΠΙΚΟΥΡΕΙΟΣ (Epicurist)
    Points
    41,665
    Posts
    5,796
    Quizzes
    9
    Quiz rate
    92.8 %
    • October 12, 2021 at 5:32 AM
    • #5

    This is such a rare occurrence to run into this sentiment below in an academic paper that I'm pulling out this long quote to highlight it. See the paper itself for the references in the footnotes:

    "One should wholeheartedly agree with Elizabeth Asmis that “the picture that has been painted of Epicureans as living in alternative communities, separate from the rest of society, needs to be corrected”, as Epicureanism “keeps a person integrated in the daily routine of ordinary life while shifting his or her aims away from those of the rest of society”.²⁷ A committed Epicurean was typically asked to absorb, and meditate on, Epicurus’ teachings in order to reorient his thoughts, emotions, and preferences in the everyday flow of moral experience. In order to reach this goal, a coherent set of psychagogic methods and stochastic techniques was developed by Epicurus and later Epicurean instructors.²⁸ Recent scholarship has demonstrated that even the Epicurean injunction to “live unnoticed” (λάθε βιώσας) and “not to engage in politics” (μὴ πολιτεύεσθαι) – two expressions that are never attested in Epicurus’ Key Docrines, but only in later sources – does not amount to anything like a general a priori rule.²⁹ Building on the earlier surveys of David Sedley,³⁰ Miriam Griffin,³¹ and Elizabeth Asmis,³² among many others, Geert Roskam and Jeffrey Fish have pointed out that Epicurus’ caveat against the dangers of political life was not dogmatic. Rather, Epicurus’ followers were expected to make their choices on the basis of a situation-based hedonic calculus, taking into account their natural disposition (φύσις or διάθεσις) as well as the exact time (καιρός) and circumstances (περίστασις) of their acts.³³ Most of the times, the hedonic calculus will suggest avoiding the turmoil of politics. But there will be moments when the sage will be called to step into the public arena, for his own good or for that of others – as happened to Epicurus himself, who praised Metrodorus for ransoming Mithres, Lysimachus’ minister, from the hands of a Macedonian general.³⁴ The history of modern scholarship on Epicureanism is replete with discussions of possible “exceptions” to the Epicurean rule of political isolation. Efforts have been made to excuse – or to blame as unorthodox – the behavior of avowed Epicureans such as Idomeneus and Mithres (who held public offices in the early Hellenistic period),³⁵ Antiochus IV Epiphanes (who was converted to Epicureanism by Philonides of Laodicea-on-Sea),³⁶ Colotes (who dedicated his work on good kingship to Ptolemy II Philadelphus),³⁷ Cassius (who planned Caesar’s assassination),³⁸ and Calpurnius Piso (who supported Philodemus’ contubernium while serving as magistrate in Rome).³⁹ Yet there is no need to quibble about exceptions, betrayals, and philosophical heresies if one recognizes that Epicureanism was a non-dogmatic and non-isolationist doctrine that approached moral issues such as marriage, political involvement, and the use of poetry from a supremely rational and pragmatic perspective.⁴⁰"

  • Online
    Don
    ΕΠΙΚΟΥΡΕΙΟΣ (Epicurist)
    Points
    41,665
    Posts
    5,796
    Quizzes
    9
    Quiz rate
    92.8 %
    • October 12, 2021 at 5:52 AM
    • #6

    This was one of the interpretations we talked about in episode 92 of the podcast:

    "As Alessandro Schiesaro pointed out, the plague episode is Lucretius’ “final spiritual exercise” for the reader, who is led to see in the very textual structure of De Rerum Natura – from the opening hymn to Venus’ creative force to the final disintegration of the ville lumière of Greece – the cyclical movement of nature.⁸¹"

    Edited once, last by Don: 92 not 91 (October 12, 2021 at 8:41 AM).

  • Online
    Don
    ΕΠΙΚΟΥΡΕΙΟΣ (Epicurist)
    Points
    41,665
    Posts
    5,796
    Quizzes
    9
    Quiz rate
    92.8 %
    • October 12, 2021 at 6:06 AM
    • #7

    I differ with the author's translation of αταραξία (ataraxia) as "impassiveness" and would use something like "tranquility," but I find the paper overall very compelling and thought-provoking. Final excerpt below:

    "While making his final catechistic efforts in Book 6, the poet can legitimately hope that his student sees the true nature of the imperturbable gods and approaches their shrines “with an untroubled breast” (placido cum pectore, 6.75) – which, of course, cannot be done by common worshippers and could not be done by the reader himself at the start of his textual pilgrimage. Creating an untroubled breast (or placidum pectus) is the fundamental purpose of all the six books of De Rerum Natura, whose contemplative devices are carefully modelled on the traditional Epicurean practice of philologia medicans – the therapeutic reading, analysis, and memorization of Epicurus’ writings that, as Lucian reminds us, could “produce peace (εἰρήνη), impassiveness (ἀταραξία), and freedom (ἐλευθερία) in readers”.¹⁰¹

  • Online
    Cassius
    05 - Administrator
    Points
    108,017
    Posts
    14,840
    Quizzes
    9
    Quiz rate
    100.0 %
    • October 12, 2021 at 7:43 AM
    • #8
    Quote from Don

    So, Cicero really didn't like Epicureanism even with Epicurean friends.

    I don't have the time sequence of the different books down in my mind other than that apparently a good number of them were written near the end of his life when he had been forced into retirement by the civil war and was not a happy camper. I also understand that the death of his daughter in this period (or nearby) further darkened his outlook. But it seems like more than anything else the recurring theme is that Cicero was a politician interested in the health of the state above all, and he didn't have the creativity to see how an expansive reading of "pleasure" could be made to be consistent with his goal of citizenship.

    Quote from Don

    – two expressions that are never attested in Epicurus’ Key Docrines, but only in later sources – does not amount to anything like a general a priori rule.

    Yes indeed you can hear me cheering him on there....

    And post number 5 above in general - the extended excerpt - is just outstanding. That's what I am referring to as the lead that Cicero could have used to thread together Epicurean views and the requirements of good citizenship - but he chose not to go that route and instead ended up with his head detached from his body without really putting up a fight, unlike Atticus who maintained friendly relations with both sides or Cassius who at least put up a strong fight before he exited the stage of his own volition.

  • Online
    Don
    ΕΠΙΚΟΥΡΕΙΟΣ (Epicurist)
    Points
    41,665
    Posts
    5,796
    Quizzes
    9
    Quiz rate
    92.8 %
    • October 12, 2021 at 12:52 PM
    • #9
    Quote from Don

    “with an untroubled breast” (placido cum pectore, 6.75)

    This is a reminder that Epicureans felt the mind resided in the area of the heart, so this phrase makes perfect sense in that context.

  • Cassius October 16, 2021 at 2:52 AM

    Changed the title of the thread from “Contemplative Isolation and Constructive Sociability.. in the Epicurean Tradition” to “Contemplative Isolation and Constructive Sociability in the Epicurean Tradition”.

Finding Things At EpicureanFriends.com

Here is a list of suggested search strategies:

  • Website Overview page - clickable links arrranged by cards.
  • Forum Main Page - list of forums and subforums arranged by topic. Threads are posted according to relevant topics. The "Uncategorized subforum" contains threads which do not fall into any existing topic (also contains older "unfiled" threads which will soon be moved).
  • Search Tool - icon is located on the top right of every page. Note that the search box asks you what section of the forum you'd like to search. If you don't know, select "Everywhere."
  • Search By Key Tags - curated to show frequently-searched topics.
  • Full Tag List - an alphabetical list of all tags.

Resources

  1. Getting Started At EpicureanFriends
  2. Community Standards And Posting Policies
  3. The Major Doctrines of Classical Epicurean Philosophy
  4. Introductory Videos
  5. Wiki
  6. Lucretius Today Podcast
    1. Podcast Episode Guide
  7. Key Epicurean Texts
    1. Side-By-Side Diogenes Laertius X (Bio And All Key Writings of Epicurus)
    2. Side-By-Side Lucretius - On The Nature Of Things
    3. Side-By-Side Torquatus On Ethics
    4. Side-By-Side Velleius on Divinity
    5. Lucretius Topical Outline
    6. Fragment Collection
  8. Frequently Asked Questions
    1. FAQ Discussions
  9. Full List of Forums
    1. Physics Discussions
    2. Canonics Discussions
    3. Ethics Discussions
    4. All Recent Forum Activities
  10. Image Gallery
  11. Featured Articles
  12. Featured Blog Posts
  13. Quiz Section
  14. Activities Calendar
  15. Special Resource Pages
  16. File Database
  17. Site Map
    1. Home

Frequently Used Forums

  • Frequently Asked / Introductory Questions
  • News And Announcements
  • Lucretius Today Podcast
  • Physics (The Nature of the Universe)
  • Canonics (The Tests Of Truth)
  • Ethics (How To Live)
  • Against Determinism
  • Against Skepticism
  • The "Meaning of Life" Question
  • Uncategorized Discussion
  • Comparisons With Other Philosophies
  • Historical Figures
  • Ancient Texts
  • Decline of The Ancient Epicurean Age
  • Unsolved Questions of Epicurean History
  • Welcome New Participants
  • Events - Activism - Outreach
  • Full Forum List

Latest Posts

  • So You Want To Learn Ancient Greek Or Latin?

    Don December 7, 2025 at 11:16 AM
  • Welcome EdGenX

    Cassius December 6, 2025 at 8:22 PM
  • Hypotheticals: Would An Epicurean Hook Himself Up To An "Experience Machine" or a "Pleasure Machine"?

    kochiekoch December 6, 2025 at 2:41 PM
  • Episode 311 - Not Yet Recorded

    Cassius December 6, 2025 at 1:31 PM
  • More Renovations -- Updates to "Map" View To Make Topics Easier To Find

    Kalosyni December 5, 2025 at 4:00 PM
  • Episode 310 - TD38 - Neither Happiness Nor Virtue Are Binary States

    Cassius December 5, 2025 at 10:57 AM
  • The Letter to Menoikeus - A New Translation with Commentary

    Don December 5, 2025 at 2:30 AM
  • Happiness As Not Requiring Complete Absence of Pain

    Cassius December 4, 2025 at 11:30 AM
  • Dignitas founder Ludwig Minelli, dies by assisted suicide aged 92

    Kalosyni December 4, 2025 at 9:13 AM
  • Epicurean Physics and Canonics at Three Levels of Reality

    TauPhi December 3, 2025 at 6:07 PM

Frequently Used Tags

In addition to posting in the appropriate forums, participants are encouraged to reference the following tags in their posts:

  • #Physics
    • #Atomism
    • #Gods
    • #Images
    • #Infinity
    • #Eternity
    • #Life
    • #Death
  • #Canonics
    • #Knowledge
    • #Scepticism
  • #Ethics

    • #Pleasure
    • #Pain
    • #Engagement
    • #EpicureanLiving
    • #Happiness
    • #Virtue
      • #Wisdom
      • #Temperance
      • #Courage
      • #Justice
      • #Honesty
      • #Faith (Confidence)
      • #Suavity
      • #Consideration
      • #Hope
      • #Gratitude
      • #Friendship



Click Here To Search All Tags

To Suggest Additions To This List Click Here

EpicureanFriends - Classical Epicurean Philosophy

  1. Home
    1. About Us
    2. Classical Epicurean Philosophy
  2. Wiki
    1. Getting Started
  3. Frequently Asked Questions
    1. Site Map
  4. Forum
    1. Latest Threads
    2. Featured Threads
    3. Unread Posts
  5. Texts
    1. Core Texts
    2. Biography of Epicurus
    3. Lucretius
  6. Articles
    1. Latest Articles
  7. Gallery
    1. Featured Images
  8. Calendar
    1. This Month At EpicureanFriends
Powered by WoltLab Suite™ 6.0.22
Style: Inspire by cls-design
Stylename
Inspire
Manufacturer
cls-design
Licence
Commercial styles
Help
Supportforum
Visit cls-design