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Epicurean Symbolism in Herculaneum Art - Something To Track Down

  • Cassius
  • August 26, 2021 at 9:57 PM
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  • Cassius
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    • August 26, 2021 at 9:57 PM
    • #1

    Here is something that needs to be researched:

    The source is : https://www.academia.edu/4198417/Philod…semiotic_debate

    Images

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  • Joshua
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    • September 4, 2021 at 7:20 PM
    • #2

    I haven't read the article, but I'd be leery of reading too much into it. If Cicero's Tusculum Villa had survived in place of his writings, we might think him an Epicurean indeed!

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    • September 4, 2021 at 7:57 PM
    • #3

    Yes I'd like to see what Gigante said too before reading too much into it.

  • Godfrey
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    • May 14, 2023 at 9:39 PM
    • #4

    Today I was in an out-of-town bookstore with my family and ran across this book, which is the catalog from the exhibit at the Getty in Malibu a few years ago:

    Buried by Vesuvius: The Villa dei Papiri at Herculaneum - Google Books

    It may be of interest in itself, but what I noticed while quickly browsing through it was a few images in particular. Pardon my poor photo quality; the store was one of those great rabbit-warrens of books and lighting wasn't a prime concern in the design....

    (L-R, top to bottom: Epicurus, Epicurus, Hermarchus and Demosthenes)

    Here's an image of the pig. In case it's not legible, the dimension given is the height, which is 40cm (15.75") including the base.

    And the prosciutto. The height is 11.3cm to which the ring adds 2.5cm; the width is 7.8cm.

  • Cassius
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    • May 14, 2023 at 10:06 PM
    • #5

    This is Hermarchus?

  • Godfrey
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    • May 15, 2023 at 12:28 AM
    • #6

    Yes. Sorry for the poor image quality!

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    • May 15, 2023 at 12:31 AM
    • #7

    If you zoom in on the images in my original post, you can see tiny numbers beneath the sculptures. Descriptions of these are in the text to the left of the two Epicurus images.

  • Don
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    • May 15, 2023 at 4:47 AM
    • #8

    Thanks for these, Godfrey !!

    I'll have to see if we have the book in the library and scan them there.

    That Hermarchus seems to coincide with this one with its base:

    Post

    RE: The Early Epicureans v1.0 [video]

    epicureanfriends.com/wcf/attachment/3702/

    The base of this statue reads Ἕρμαρχoς Hermarchos and is the image on the book cover to the left.
    Don
    May 3, 2023 at 9:36 PM
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    • May 15, 2023 at 6:42 AM
    • #9

    Yes the image Don is pointing to in post 8 just doesn't seem to me to look like the image in post 5. The image in post 5 at first glance looks to me more like a variation of Epicurus himself.

    I don't doubt that you guys are right but that image in post 5 (which I do think I have seen before) confuses me.

  • Don
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    • May 15, 2023 at 8:10 AM
    • #10

    And the prosciutto is great!!

    I had never seen that before, but I could easily accept the Epicurean & epicurean implications of that, both pigs and food.

  • Cassius
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    • May 15, 2023 at 8:39 AM
    • #11

    pasted-from-clipboard.png

    They can never resist accentuating the negative. I would say more like pigs as symbols of the uninhibited pursuit of pleasure and the unwllingness to bow to authority.

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    • May 15, 2023 at 5:29 PM
    • #12

    Referring back again to the clip in post 5 above --

    I found another reference I came across long ago. Not sure I can find the URL for this, but take a look. This looks to me to be the one we are discussing, and it's identified here as a Epicurus (which seems to me what I would think too). I will see if I can find a URL or another reference.

  • Cassius
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    • May 15, 2023 at 5:34 PM
    • #13

    This one doesn't add anything except the page number from that old sketchbook --If I had to speculate I would say that this is a poor representation of the bust I just posted in post 12 above. Doesn't the posture seem more erect than in the ones we typically see, but still the face of Epicurus? And look at the furrows in the forehead which the sketcher tried to capture.

    I am thinking that there exist several distinctively different busts of Epicurus that we have to be aware of to take into account, with this one being the least well used (but not at all the worst in the picture that is posted above in 12).

  • Don
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    • May 15, 2023 at 5:55 PM
    • #14
    Quote from Cassius

    Referring back again to the clip in post 5 above --

    I found another reference I came across long ago. Not sure I can find the URL for this, but take a look. This looks to me to be the one we are discussing, and it's identified here as a Epicurus (which seems to me what I would think too). I will see if I can find a URL or another reference.

    That one has the characteristic forked beard that Epicurus has.

  • Godfrey
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    • May 16, 2023 at 1:00 AM
    • #15

    To me, Epicurus has a slightly thinner face with slightly more pronounced cheekbones than the figure in #5 and #12; I would not say that that is Epicurus. Looks much more stern than Epicurus as well. But if the image is labeled "Epicurus," that could explain how it ended up on the Guyau book cover.

  • Cassius
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    • May 16, 2023 at 5:55 AM
    • #16

    Ha! My confusion increases :)

    Is *that* the one on the book cover?

    I would have said the book cover is clearly the one we all agree to be Hermarchus, which is not shown currently in this thread.

  • Godfrey
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    • May 16, 2023 at 9:42 AM
    • #17

    On the book cover his right shoulder is much higher so they are would appear to be different sculptures. However after examining #12 above and then looking at the book cover, the book cover looks more like Epicurus 8o

    But it's early here, and I'm looking on my phone, so there's much squinting involved.

  • Cassius
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    • May 16, 2023 at 10:42 AM
    • #18

    Here is the book cover we are talking about (which appears to me to be Hermarchus based largely on the eyes)

  • Don
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    • May 16, 2023 at 12:20 PM
    • #19
    Quote from Cassius

    Here is the book cover we are talking about (which appears to me to be Hermarchus based largely on the eyes)

    Agreed. Definitely doesn't remind me of Epicurus.

  • Godfrey
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    • May 16, 2023 at 12:28 PM
    • #20

    Now that it's not so early, the book cover doesn't look like Epicurus. As for #12, the shape of the head seems wrong and he's way too stern to accord with the images of Epicurus that I'm used to seeing.

    A large part of the problem could be that different artists had different interpretations. Or different levels of skill. How many statues of contemporary athletes have you seen that look nothing like the athlete? ^^

    BTW there's a YouTube video of James Corden showing David Beckham a goofy version of his statue before the unveiling, which is a great send up of the modern athlete statue.

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