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Did Epicurus Advise Marriage or Not? Diogenes Laertius Text Difficulty

  • Cassius
  • June 29, 2021 at 4:07 PM
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    • July 3, 2021 at 8:48 PM
    • #21

    If you are saying that Hicks is the source of the "not marry" viewpoint, then I would bolster that with my observations that I find Hicks to take a VERY negative position on Epicurus. I remember reading his "Stoics and Epicureans" and being struck with how negative and pessimistic Hicks' worldview seemed to me to be - very stoic.

    Thank you for all the research!

    This is what I am remembering: https://newepicurean.com/is-that-all-th…and-epicureans/

  • Don
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    • July 3, 2021 at 9:11 PM
    • #22

    The only way to figure out what could be the correct one is to:

    1. see if there's room for one or two letters if there's a missing piece of the manuscript: ΜΗ(Ν) vs ΜΗ(ΔΕ).

    2. If there's not a lacuna, compare ALL the extant manuscripts and calculate where and how the are differences.

    If it's the latter, Userner seems to have examined the manuscripts or at least authoritative copies.

    If the former, you're right in that one's positive or negative disposition may influence seeing ΜΗΝ or ΜΗΔΕ.

  • Pacatus
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    • January 28, 2024 at 2:09 PM
    • #23

    Whilst reading Sider on Philodemus poetry, I came across the following –

    Sider (pp. 35-36):

    “as both Chilton and Grilli agree, Epicurus does allow his followers to marry, although only in exceptional circumstances. This view is in line with the several other less than absolute strictures of Epicurus listed by Diogenes, including the general prohibition against writing poetry.38

    “What these exceptional circumstances are neither Epicurus nor our sources spell out, but we may imagine that much would depend on the character of the woman. Since, moreover, women were welcome into the Garden for their intellectual abilities, these fellow Epicureans would seem to be obvious candidates for wives. Since, furthermore, women were appreciated for their bodies as well as their minds, sex being regarded as a providing a natural, albeit unnecessary, pleasure, sexual passion would not be expected to stop at marriage. …

    “A woman who could satisfy both body and mind would make the ideal wife.”

    Use of the phrase “allow … although only …” implies that Epicurus’ authority was such that he could also forbid (disallow) his followers from marrying.

    ++++++++++++++++++

    Now the comments in this thread, including Cassius in post #8 and Don translations, indicate that no one here would be in agreement with such authoritarian innuendoes. Nor does Hick’s “Occasionally he may marry …” imply that.

    But there seems to be some such authoritarian interpretation out there in the scholarly world.

    ++++++++++++++++++

    I looked up the Chilton article, "Did Epicurus approve of marriage? A study of Diogenes Laertius 10.119" and found it here: https://www.jstor.org/stable/4181668…an_tab_contents

    Chilton proffers the following interpretation: “In general the wise man will not marry but sometimes depending on the circumstances of his life, he will marry” – but then argues that it must be wrong.

    Chilton also discusses the question of the wise man “turning away from his purpose,” etc., discussed in this thread above from post #5.

    But Chilton does not – unless I missed it – suggest that Epicurus in some authoritarian manner allowed/forbade marriage unless some approved conditions were met.

    +++++++++++++++

    Chilton is also cited here, “Epicurus on Sex, Marriage and Children” by Tad Brennan: https://www.jstor.org/stable/270440?…an_tab_contents

    Brennan says that Epicurus “advised against marriage … but permitted it in exceptional cases.” (p. 348-349) This could be taken as a somewhat weaker position than Sider’s – but seems a bit confusing.

    He also says, referring to Epicurus’ will: "These texts, then, show that Epicurus did permit and indeed encourage marriage and child-rearing-not as a rule, but for certain Epicureans, in certain circumstances. And they also indicate what sort of circumstances these were.”

    He concludes on marriage: “By and large, Epicurus will advise Epicureans not to marry, but sometimes, in exceptional circumstances, he will advise certain of them to marry.” (p. 350) Advise, not allow/permit/forbid.

    All in all, Brennan seems at best sloppy on his use of language.

    "We must try to make the end of the journey better than the beginning, as long as we are journeying; but when we come to the end, we must be happy and content." (Vatican Saying 48)

  • Don
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    • January 28, 2024 at 2:24 PM
    • #24

    I'll have to look those articles up!! Thanks for the references.

    One thing to remember in this discussion was that, Epicurean or not, women's lives were circumscribed within the general Greek culture. Look at his Will and talking about the daughter of Metrodorus:

    Let them likewise provide for the maintenance of Metrodorus's daughter,32 so long as she is well-ordered and obedient to Hermarchus; and, when she comes of age, give her in marriage to a husband selected by Hermarchus from among the members of the School ; and out of the revenues accruing to me let Amynomachus and Timocrates in consultation with Hermarchus give to them as much as they think proper for their maintenance year by year.

    That said, I don't get the impression that Epicurus was forbidding marriages but I can see men (and women! in the Garden) asking his counsel and advice on who they were thinking of marrying.

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    Cassius
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    • January 28, 2024 at 2:31 PM
    • #25

    Lots of good research there, thank you Pacatus!

    None of it changes my view that Epicurus was not a dictator and did not forbid or grant allowances on much of anything (except presumably deference to philosophical core issues, and this would certainly not be among those.

    Further, I am more convinced than ever at this point in my studying that Epicurus was extremely practical and did not have absolute right and wrong bright lines on most any kind of action, and most any kind of action may be needed depending on circumstances, even engagement in the "political" world as needed. So given his flexibility toward even the virtues II would have expected him to see marriage as no more mandatory or forbidden as a general rule. and just as Lucretius ends Book 4, habit and long standing benefit can render even the unpredictable institution of matrimony as something from which the wise can benefit, if the appropriate spouse is available.

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    • January 28, 2024 at 2:40 PM
    • #26

    I didn't see Dons post before writing my post 25. The Will stands out in my mind as an insurmountable obstacle to those who want to argue that Epicurus forbid or even discouraged marriage. Given the will it can continue to be argued that he advised caution and deliberation, as he did with everything, but the argument that he was a strong opponent or he forbid it is to me just more evidence of how hostile much of the academic world is to Epicurus.

  • Pacatus
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    • January 28, 2024 at 2:54 PM
    • #27
    Quote from Cassius

    the argument that he was a strong opponent or he forbid it is to me just more evidence of how hostile much of the academic world is to Epicurus

    Even among scholars who, for one reason or another, carved out for themselves a niche in Epicurean scholarship. Even if sometimes it's a subconscious bias that creeps in. I hope Sider's work on the actual poems of Philodemus is better! X(

    "We must try to make the end of the journey better than the beginning, as long as we are journeying; but when we come to the end, we must be happy and content." (Vatican Saying 48)

  • Pacatus
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    • January 28, 2024 at 3:00 PM
    • #28
    Quote from Don

    Epicurean or not, women's lives were circumscribed within the general Greek culture.

    Epicurus pushed the edges of such circumscription within the Garden (it seems to me) – and that’s clearly all he could do. But that “that’s all” can serve as an exemplar for when circumstances change – and the Leontion’s and Themistas of our time (and other strong women) can be celebrated.

    "We must try to make the end of the journey better than the beginning, as long as we are journeying; but when we come to the end, we must be happy and content." (Vatican Saying 48)

  • Don
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    • January 28, 2024 at 3:28 PM
    • #29
    Quote from Pacatus

    Epicurus pushed the edges of such circumscription within the Garden (it seems to me)

    Fully agree! Letting women and slaves study philosophy??!! Clutch my pearls! =O

    However, marriages still needed to be sanctioned by the state and the culture to be legal and to allow for inheritance and the other legal and social aspects to be legitimate.

    Quote

    Sexual Relationships
    The wise one will not establish a sexual relationship in a way that is against the law or forbidden by custom. Epicureans generally think that the sage will never succumb to lustful desire or be overwhelmed by sexual passions. According to the school, sexual passion is not sent by any supernatural force. They say that having sex like animals never did anyone any good, and people should be content if it does no harm. Epicurus also said that the wise one will not marry nor raise a family (and talked about the pains involved with that life); however, under certain circumstances, the wise one will forsake these rules and decide to marry. (118, 119)

    Epicurean Sage
    My goal in this translation of Diogenes Laertius's Lives of Eminent Philosophers, Book X.117-121, was to be as literal as possible to preserve the flavor of…
    sites.google.com
  • Kalosyni April 4, 2024 at 8:59 AM

    Moved the thread from forum Translation of Ancient Texts, Translators, and Potential Corruption of Texts to forum Translation Issues.
  • Eikadistes
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    • October 29, 2024 at 5:40 PM
    • #30

    I'm re-visiting this.

    Don do you have a copy of the original manuscript?

    The error here is the original translators' rendering of the first three words of this sentence. Some render μηδὲ, which is very clearly the oppositional word "not", whereas others render μέν, which is not oppositional and may just be reinforcing the καί. This is the difference between "and will not marry" versus "and also will marry". This is a rather significant contention.

    After citing this position to Epicurus' book Puzzles and On Nature, the following clause features the word δέ, which is another oppositional "but", denoting a change in direction from the last sentence. We have another future verb here ("will marry"), so that leads me to believe that the first sentence should be μηδὲ, that a wise person is "not" usually likely to marry. That seems consistent.

    But then this phrase, which seems to sit by itself:

    καὶ διατραπήσεσθαί τινας

    There are no nominative or genitive words in this clause, so I'm assuming the subject is implied.

    καὶ usually means "and" (or some other supportive conjunction)
    τινας is a plural, indefinate, accusative pronoun, so it should have to be "them", right?

    I'm also assuming that "them" is the recipient of the action in this sentence.

    διατραπήσεσθαί is the action, and ugh ... I wish we had more examples.

    So, breaking it down ... since there's only one example of it ... the root is διατρέπω, from δια- ("by, for, through") and τρέπω ("to turn, rotate, divert"). It ends in -esthai, so I assume this is the future, middle infinitive form. So, that leads me to interpret this word as "will turn away from".

    Altogether, we've got "and will turn away from them."

    So, regarding the pronoun "them" ... as far as I can tell, the only actual nouns that have been used so far (besides citing "Epicurus" and his books "Puzzles" and "On Nature") are "circumstances" and "of life". Otherwise, the concepts "wife", "children", and "marriage" are implied by verbs, but those nouns are not used by themselves. So the thing the wise person is turning away from ...

    "and will turn away from [their family]" or "[the circumstance productive of family]."

    Either way, as I'm now reading this, it seems like Epicurus was saying "Wise people don't start a family. Even if you find the right person, starting a family is still unwise."

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    • October 29, 2024 at 6:33 PM
    • #31
    Quote

    The error here is the original translators' rendering of the first three words of this sentence. Some render μηδὲ, which is very clearly the oppositional word "not", whereas others render μέν, which is not oppositional and may just be reinforcing the καί

    It's been a while since I looked into this, but here is the English text in the Yonge translation;

    Quote

    He said that injuries existed among men, either in consequence of hatred, or of envy, or of contempt, all which the wise man overcomes by reason. Also, that a man who has once been wise can never receive the contrary disposition, nor can he of his own accord invent such a state of things as that he should be subjected to the dominion of the passions; nor can he hinder himself in his progress towards wisdom. That the wise man, however, cannot exist in every state of body, nor in every nation. That even if the wise man were to be put to the torture, he would still be happy. That the wise man will only feel gratitude to his friends, but to them equally[467] whether they are present or absent. Nor will he groan and howl when he is put to the torture. Nor will he marry a wife whom the laws forbid, as Diogenes says, in his epitome of the Ethical Maxims of Epicurus. He will punish his servants, but also pity them, and show indulgence to any that are virtuous. They do not think that the wise man will ever be in love, nor that he will be anxious about his burial, nor that love is a passion inspired by the Gods, as Diogenes says in his twelfth book. They also assert that he will be indifferent to the study of oratory. Marriage, say they, is never any good to a man, and we must be quite content if it does no harm; and the wise man will never marry or beget children, as Epicurus himself lays it down, in his Doubts and in his treatises on Nature. Still, under certain circumstances of life, he will forsake these rules and marry. Nor will he ever indulge in drunkenness, says Epicurus, in his Banquet, nor will he entangle himself in affairs of state (as he says in his first book on Lives). Nor will he become a tyrant. Nor will he become a Cynic (as he says in his second book about Lives). Nor a beggar. And even, though he should lose his eyes, he will still partake of life (as he says in the same book).

    The most common phrasing in this passage is "nor will the wise man...". The few sentences that don't start with nor instead start with 'also', 'however', or 'still', which seems to indicate that this is principally a list of what the wise man will not do, with the few exceptions marked off as such.

    Quote

    Some render μηδὲ, which is very clearly the oppositional word "not", whereas others render μέν, which is not oppositional and may just be reinforcing the καί. This is the difference between "and will not marry" versus "and also will marry". This is a rather significant contention.

    I suspect that it won't be sufficient to examine only the sentence under consideration, where the preceding and following sentences might contribute to a proper reading of the conjunctions.

    That being said, the Greeks got a whole hell of a lot of mileage out of that one word καί. It's certainly beyond my powers to parse!

  • Don
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    • October 29, 2024 at 6:37 PM
    • #32
    Quote from Eikadistes

    Don do you have a copy of the original manuscript?

    https://www.epicureanfriends.com/wcf/user/311-don/#wall/comment484

    This post on my wall has links to the available online digitized DL manuscripts.

    As far as "original," that's open to definition/interpretation. We certainly don't have DL's autographs or his sources in many cases. The ones we do have are centuries removed from him; however, they're the best we have!

  • Eikadistes
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    • October 29, 2024 at 8:12 PM
    • #33

    Regarding part of that section, here is how White (2021) translates:

    "119 Moreover, the wise man will both marry and have children, as Epicurus says in Perplexities and in On Nature; he will marry at a time suited to his circumstances in life, and some will refuse to do so. However, he will not chatter away over drink, says Epicurus in the Symposium. Nor will he participate in government, as in On Lives Book 1; nor will he be a tyrant. nor will he act like a Cynic, as in On Lives Book 2; nor will he go begging. But even if his sight is impaired, he will not take his own life, as he says in the same work. also the wise man will feel sorrow, says Diogenes in Selections Book 5; and he will go to court, and he will leave behind writings, but he will not deliver ceremonial addresses."

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    Bryan
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    • October 29, 2024 at 9:49 PM
    • #34
    Quote from Eikadistes

    καὶ διατραπήσεσθαί τινας

    Yes I think we can ignore that period some editors add and can connect this with the preceding κατὰ περίστασιν δέ ποτε βίου γαμήσειν.

    With Τινας as a subject-accusative which pluralizes its reference to τὸν Σοφόν and takes the infinitives γαμήσειν and διατραπήσεσθαί (taken as middle), we could have:


    ...and [Epíkouros says] in "On Nature" that some [wise men] will marry at some point in [their] life according to circumstance and [some] will refuse [to marry].

    Edited once, last by Bryan (October 30, 2024 at 10:28 AM).

  • Don
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    • October 29, 2024 at 10:38 PM
    • #35

    Pertinent section from Paris codex MSS (Gr. 1759), known as P (Publication date : 1075-1150 ). That second line here (which starts "119") looks to me certainly like:

    και μην και γαμησειν και τεκνοποιήσειν τὸν σοφόν...

    Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, μήν

    verily, truly? for μην?

    There is a δε once you get to δε ποτε βιου γαμησειν...

  • Don
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    • October 30, 2024 at 6:33 AM
    • #36

    That said, I'll need to check the other manuscripts. Some may have μηδέ after that first και.

  • Don
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    • October 30, 2024 at 8:52 AM
    • #37

    DigiVatLib

    284v - cod. Vaticanus Palatinus Graecus 261 (=S)

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    • October 30, 2024 at 10:39 AM
    • #38

    Thanks for these Don! So it seems these two agree and both have μήν.

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  • Don
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    • October 30, 2024 at 11:55 AM
    • #39

    I was a bit confused with the ascender in your 4734, but that does appear to be a variant ēta form.

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