⟐ as the symbol of the philosophy of Epicurus

Quote from Julia

Somehow I can't see it (on your wall)? Can you please also post it to this thread?

I couldn't post images to my wall, so I edited the post above.

Quote from Don

My major misgiving about the moon I'm using is that it can be interpreted as a moon with a surprised look on its face. (Once you see it, you can't unsee it.)

I still don't see it. I mean, I can cognitively suppose that the two atoms left/right could be eyes, and the atom at the bottom could be a mouth, like with this smiley "" but then what's the one at the top? The 3rd eye? And how come the right eye is bigger than the mouth? I really don't see it! Is Don the only one who sees it, or am I the only one who doesn't?

I guess my pareidolia is overactive.

Pareidolia - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I do not see it, probably because of the larger atom at the top and the different sizes of the "eyes" as mentioned by Julia.

Quote from Martin

the larger atom at the top

I couldn't not see that as a hair curl in the middle of his forehead, like Superman.

Don: Is there an astonished / surprised superman in here, too?

Of what we have so far, I still like this symbol best.

Quote from Don

Thinking out loud (fully realizing I just said no letters )

Φ or Φ - Greek phi

= Philosophy
Two stylized Ps back to back = Pleasure and Pain

If the Epicurean philosophy is about choice of Pleasure or Pain, then

Pleasure/Pain = Φ/Φ

Quote from Kalosyni

But I like this concept that Eikadistes made some time ago... I've made it as a plain symbol without words:

In the even that anyone else wants to play with the gibbous moon design, I'm happy to share with you high resolution versions of the wordless transparencies I created for the Hedonicon and elsewhere.

Quote from Eikadistes

Quote from Kalosyni

But I like this concept that Eikadistes made some time ago... I've made it as a plain symbol without words:

In the even that anyone else wants to play with the gibbous moon design, I'm happy to share with you high resolution versions of the wordless transparencies I created for the Hedonicon and elsewhere.

I would appreciate that, Eikadistes!

Don, do you have a vector file of your Four Atoms version of it? If not, that's okay, too: The picture you uploaded is quite high resolution, and looks like it should be easy enough to trace

If y'all would like to release any file/symbol into the public domain, you can do that using the following template (for example). This effectively voids your own copyright to the specified file/symbol, thereby granting perpetual unlimited usage rights to anyone and everyone. To illustrate: The original text of De Rerum Natura and classical music are in the public domain, but Stallings' translation of DRN and today's number 1 pop song won't be in public domain for many years to come. Template:

This work (the file & symbol uploaded in this post by myself) is dedicated to the public domain and is marked with CC0 1.0 Universal. To view a copy of this license, visit https://creativecommons.org/publicdomain/zero/1.0/

(Happy Birthday To You is a well-known example for why this can matter. Please know that I do not assume ill-intentions by anyone here. Copyright is just a topic that is very present in my mind in general )

Quote from Julia

Don, do you have a vector file of your Four Atoms version of it

I just threw that together on Paint.net. The image I posted is all I have.

Quote from Joshua

I'd like to throw in one more contender; the myrtle blossom, sacred to Aphrodite/Venus.

https://toptropicals.com/pics/garden/m1…234_flower_.jpg

Note that this is the True or Common Myrtle, myrtus communis. Frescoes featuring this plant have been discovered at Santorini and Pompeii.

I like it! Also a quick search shows a rose is also a symbol of Venus and Aphrodite, so you got your pick.

Another philosophical position that uses a flower as a symbol is freethought. They use a pansy as a symbol.

Humanist Heritage: Freethought pansy

The pansy has a historic association with humanism and freethought, its name deriving from the French ‘pensée’ meaning ‘to think’. […]

heritage.humanists.uk

Flowers are delicate and non-intimidating, not to mention beautiful and transient. Kind of like the good life.

I also liked the visual of the common myrtle, but I was skeptical as to its symbolism, because — well… — Epicurean philosophy is not primarily about Venus or Aphrodite, so it would, in effect, place a rhetoric device, a poetic figure at the centre of things. See what I mean? It would be sort-of similar to using Iphigenia as a symbol, would it not?

What I thought could be done is, one could interpret the anther of the myrtle flower as atoms flying into mostly one direction, the filament of the stamen would be their past flight path through the void. It could also be interpreted as the pistil being Epicurus and the stamen being people at the garden. One could arrange the stamen such that they shape the four lines of the tetrapharmakos, as in the diamond/rhombus symbol. But then what are the petals? There might be three in a drawing, showing the three-legged canon of truth.

A flower, just like anything else, should, in my humble opinion, have a good amount of symbolism to go with it; symbolism which is Epicurean in a more narrower sense of the word than Venus or Iphigenia would be on their own.

Quote from Julia

A flower, just like anything else, should, in my humble opinion, have a good amount of symbolism to go with it; symbolism which is Epicurean in a more narrower sense of the word than Venus or Iphigenia would be on their own.

Yeah, there is a lot of deep symbolism there if you break it down isn't there. Although I don't think it's necessary to go to that level of depth for a simple symbol of Epicureanism. Myrtle flowers are great, but I prefer roses. Also symbolic of Venus and a lot more common and easily obtained.

I don't think poor Iphigenia, brutally murdered by her father, would be a good symbol of Epicureanism in general as her story is sad and ugly and superstitious. She's a cautionary tale.

Venus is a great metaphor for the philosophy, as she symbolizes the beauty and harmony of nature and also of pleasure and desire. The poet Lucretius, secular as he was, featured her prominently in his poem for that and other reasons.

Quote from kochiekoch

The poet Lucretius, secular as he was, featured her prominently in his poem for that and other reasons.

Yes, at least 14 times by name, and most prominently, of course, right at the start.

https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/searchresults?target=en&inContent=true&q=Venus&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0131

And the traditional gods are fine to use metaphorically. I always seem to go back to...

...whoso

Decides to call the ocean Neptune, or

The grain-crop Ceres, and prefers to abuse

The name of Bacchus rather than pronounce

The liquor's proper designation, him

Let us permit to go on calling earth

Mother of Gods, if only he will spare

To taint his soul with foul religion.

Quote from kochiekoch

I prefer roses. Also symbolic of Venus and a lot more common and easily obtained.

Roses are, indeed, more easily obtained, but roses are so very common and as a symbol are so heavily pre-charged already, that I wonder if they would serve a symbol's purpose of providing recognition with a reasonable amount of certainty…

I remain skeptical regarding whether Venus Physica is the way to go. I think there is a difference between "metaphorical" and "symbolic", and to me, Venus is more metaphorical than symbolic, which remains true, whether or not she was Memmius' and Lucretius' favourite. Venus as a metaphor can be exchanged for something else, without changing Epicurean philosophy as such. On the other hand, the atoms, the tetrapharmakos, the 20ieth, and so forth, are fixed — they will exist practically forever, and even if we live on Mars someday, moon on earth will still look the same on that day. I think that's beautiful and poetic

And also: In my opinion, what Lucretius expressed in those lines Don cited is that everyday language need not be relegated (lest one annoy people), so long as people don't take it at face value; just because Lucretius made explicit that the focus is on what people believe, not how they phrase everyday things — where I live, they say "Oh my god!" and "Inshallah!" all the time without thinking much about it… —, that doesn't make it an ideal or something aspirational. Lucretius doesn't say "Do use names of gods for things!"; he says "Let people stick to their old habits, as long as they know it's not real." Doesn't he?

So far, my personal favourites are still the waning gibbous (20er moon) with four atom dots arranged in a diamond, and the sideways rhombus with an atom in the middle

Here is something I made using Canva layers (for the shapes and colors) together with a text-to-image (the woodcut).

Quote from Kalosyni

Here is something I made using Canva layers (for the shapes and colors) together with a text-to-image (the woodcut).

Hmmm… I think – and y'all might disagree – but I think a symbol should be so simple that an average 8yo child could reproduce it. It shouldn't be harder than learning by heart how to draw a specific Chinese character (正体字), and I think this simplicity is actually an important aspect of these types of symbols

I feel like I'm saying "No" to everything, but I don't do that for the sake of it, nor do I mean to be confrontational, and I sincerely hope I'm expressing myself well. I do appreciate everyone's opinions and thoughts on finding a good symbol!

Quote from Julia

I think a symbol should be so simple that an average 8yo child could reproduce it

A long time ago I tried drawing a nice looking yin-yang symbol...it looks simple right? ...I ended up going to the library and making a photocopy from a book .

Quote from Julia

Roses are, indeed, more easily obtained, but roses are so very common and as a symbol are so heavily pre-charged already, that I wonder if they would serve a symbol's purpose of providing recognition with a reasonable amount of certainty…

LOL!!! "A rose by any other name would still smell as sweet"!

Quote from Julia

I remain skeptical regarding whether Venus Physica is the way to go. I think there is a difference between "metaphorical" and "symbolic", and to me, Venus is more metaphorical than symbolic, which remains true, whether or not she was Memmius' and Lucretius' favourite. Venus as a metaphor can be exchanged for something else, without changing Epicurean philosophy as such. On the other hand, the atoms, the tetrapharmakos, the 20ieth, and so forth, are fixed — they will exist practically forever, and even if we live on Mars someday, moon on earth will still look the same on that day. I think that's beautiful and poetic

That's a very good point. You would want something unmistakably Epicurean as your symbol.

Quote from Julia

So far, my personal favourites are still the waning gibbous (20er moon) with four atom dots arranged in a diamond, and the sideways rhombus with an atom in the middle

I don't think most people would have a clue that the waning moon is Epicurean. Also true of the four atom dots arraigned in a diamond. Frankly the sideways rhombus looks like an eyeball. Which is too bad because they're apparently available in jewelry now.

So, thinking twice about all this has made me favor a conservative position. The image of Epicurus, used for generations in the ancient world, would be best. It is UNMISTAKABLY Epicurean and would be so to even the uninitiated. (Unless somebody identifies it as Epictetus. I've seen that)

Quote from kochiekoch

I don't think most people would have a clue that the waning moon is Epicurean. Also true of the four atom dots arraigned in a diamond.

Why is that so bad? I could generalise it, and it would remain true: "most people would have no clue what Epicurean philosophy is" — and, as far as the general public is concerned, the same would also hold true for Epicurus' face.

I don't think that – with regards to finding a symbol – this a problem, or if it is, it isn't one we can solve. You see, it's probably true that in some parts of the world most of the local people there would have no clue what the christianist fish symbol means — but some people would know, some people would recognize it, and it could be the beginning of a bond over shared values. Some other people might not recognise it, but get curious and ask, which could be the beginning of a nice conversation, the beginning of a connection over something more than the weather.

And also, those who use the symbol would know what it means to themselves, it would be a reminder, a little non-supernatural ritual or charm, which is also something valuable.

That's enough for me