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Personal mottos?

  • Rolf
  • April 16, 2025 at 9:48 AM
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    • May 15, 2025 at 9:35 AM
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    Quote from Rolf

    That said, painful chronic conditions are something I’m still struggling to reconcile with the philosophy. I’ve heard arguments against Epicureanism that “it’s a philosophy only for healthy, happy people”. While I disagree, I’m not entirely sure how I’d respond to the criticism.

    I would say that it's not just a philosophy for healthy, happy, people, it's a philosophy that is the best way for anyone in any condition to work toward the greatest health and happiness that is possible for them.

    Contrary to the mystical-based Stoicism or Platonism or the rest, Epicurus doesn't offer a magic pill that death is a better place, or that every circumstance in life can be changed. There are indeed many situations where there's no further viable option to reduce pain other than to live with it and recognize that the pleasures of being alive outweigh the pains. When you get to the point that you are certain that there is no possibility of pleasure ever again outweighing pain for you in your circumstances, then and only then is it time to start thinking about "exiting the stage." But as Epicurus also said (VS38) "He is a little man in all respects who has many good reasons for quitting life."

    In respect to the main question, Epicurus is reported to have said that:

    "A man cannot become wise with every kind of physical constitution, nor in every nation." https://handbook.epicureanfriends.com/sbsdlx/#117

    I'd be careful about how to apply that, but it only makes sense that Epicurus would recognize that everything that makes up what we think of as "us" is essentially bodily, and therefore sickness, disease, death, or the circumstances in which we live can effectively prevent us from living as we would like to live.

    I'd call that realistic rather than pessimistic, and I'd call it much preferable to imagining that there is a better life after death, or a magic pill that overrides nature, becaus those things just don't exist, and I'd rather know the truth about my situation rather than spend whatever time I have under fake pretenses.

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    Rolf
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    • May 15, 2025 at 10:04 AM
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    Quote from Cassius

    I'd call that realistic rather than pessimistic, and I'd call it much preferable to imagining that there is a better life after death, or a magic pill that overrides nature, becaus those things just don't exist, and I'd rather know the truth about my situation rather than spend whatever time I have under fake pretenses.

    I agree, well said.

    Quote from Cassius

    "A man cannot become wise with every kind of physical constitution, nor in every nation."

    This one has always been a bit prickly for me. If Epicureanism is a philosophy that is beneficial for everyone, and wisdom is so vital for prudently pursuing pleasure, then the idea that certain people are involuntarily unable to work towards this feels rather deflating. What is one to do if they lack the “physical constitution” or live in the “wrong nation”? Does Epicureanism still have something to offer such people, or are they better off looking elsewhere for pleasure and the reduction of pain?

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  • Cassius
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    • May 15, 2025 at 10:32 AM
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    • #23
    Quote from Rolf

    This one has always been a bit prickly for me. If Epicureanism is a philosophy that is beneficial for everyone, and wisdom is so vital for prudently pursuing pleasure, then the idea that certain people are involuntarily unable to work towards this feels rather deflating. What is one to do if they lack the “physical constitution” or live in the “wrong nation”? Does Epicureanism still have something to offer such people, or are they better off looking elsewhere for pleasure and the reduction of pain?


    The first thing to work to improve the "physical constitution" and get out of the "wrong nation" if at all possible. That in itself is a huge offering because it tells people not to wallow in their bad circumstances (not to "accept" them) if they can be changed.

    If those circumstances cannot be changed, then what those people have is an extremely unfortunate situation that is thankfully very rare -- when you have absolutely no way to make things better. Then if there are truly no alternatives, one can exit the stage, but that is not going to be the case for almost anyone except in extreme conditions.

    I have seen the argument that this is "deflating" but it is also reality, and it need not be deflating depending on one's attitude toward reality. It seems to me that the problem with thinking that "something has to be doable" when the situation really is beyond repair is a form of mysticism that often combines itself (in my view) with modern "humanism" of the kind that gets into regular debates about things like "all men are equal." Yes we would like them to be, and many of us take action to make things as equal as possible in many respects, but with our current technology there's nothing you can do to change a 100 year old person with terminal cancer into a 20 year old with perfect health. That's the kind of thing that in my view has to be "accepted" for now. If we want to change it, then we do whatever we can to advance medical science to the point where that might be possible. But where it isn't possible, that's the kind of thing we have to "accept."

    And one more point: looking for answers to situations that are truly impossible to change seems to be what leads many people to supernatural religion. Would Epicurus suggest that people who refuse to accept reality take up supernatural religion?

    I don't think so. That's a discussion worthy to pursue to, but I would say that Epicurus would not suggest that. I would say that Epicurus was so invested (properly) in living with Nature and with reality that he would find it intolerably painful to choose to abandon nature for something fictional.

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    Rolf
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    • May 15, 2025 at 10:52 AM
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    • #24

    I see where you’re coming from, and I agree with what you’re saying, but I don’t necessarily interpret the quote the same way. Are you saying that Epicurus means that there are only 1) those with the “right physical constitution” and 2) those who have no hope of a pleasurable life? The way I understand the quote, there is a lot in between - I take it to mean that there are people who can experience pleasure, but lack the “physical constitution” to be truly wise and prudent due to circumstances outside of their control. There are many people with chronic physical or mental illnesses that can be mitigated but not removed - would Epicurus say that these people lack the “physical constitution” to be wise?

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  • Don
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    • May 15, 2025 at 1:44 PM
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    • #25

    For what it's worth, here's my page on that...

    Epicurean Sage - Not every bodily constitution or nationality...
    Hicks: However, not every bodily constitution nor every nationality would permit a man to become wise. Yonge: That the wise man, however, cannot exist in every…
    sites.google.com
  • Cassius
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    • May 15, 2025 at 4:45 PM
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    • #26
    Quote from Rolf

    There are many people with chronic physical or mental illnesses that can be mitigated but not removed - would Epicurus say that these people lack the “physical constitution” to be wise?

    As regrettable as that might be, I think the answer to that question is clearly "Yes." Now "wise" has many shades to it, and i don't think there's an absolute definition that applies to everyone. But there are in my view clearly lines of clinical issues where it's going to be unreasonable to say that such and such a person is "wise."

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    Rolf
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    • May 15, 2025 at 5:00 PM
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    • #27
    Quote from Cassius

    Now "wise" has many shades to it, and i don't think there's an absolute definition that applies to everyone.

    You’re right, defining the term “wise” is important here. The way I understand it, the word “wise” here is used to mean having a full grasp on Epicurean philosophy and the prudent pursuit of pleasure.

    Quote from Cassius

    But there are in my view clearly lines of clinical issues where it's going to be unreasonable to say that such and such a person is "wise."

    I’m talking more about whether such people have the capability to become “wise” (ie. “Fill their vessel” and experience continuous pleasure through prudent choice and avoidance). Not whether or not we would fall them are wise in their current state.

    What kind of “clinical issues” would discount somebody from achieving a proper grasp on Epicurean philosophy, in your view?

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