Posts by Patrikios

Quote from Godfrey

So far my new regimen is going well. It's only been about six weeks, but I've replaced my usual solo workouts with a couple of different exercise classes, each a couple of times per week.

Godfrey ,

Congratulations on continuing your exercise program with scheduled classes and a workout buddy. One additional way I found to stack exercise sessions into habits was to watch and follow a 15 minute Tai Chi warmup on YouTube, before starting a walk or going to workout classes. Also a 15-20 Tai Chi warmup in the morning or middle of the day, can help to loosen up tight muscles and bring clarity to mental activities.

My favorite is by Tai Chi and Mountains.
By master Marco Insalata.
15 minute Tai Chi morning stretching and warm-up to prepare the body for any daily physical activity.

15 MIN TAI CHI MORNING STRETCHING AND WARM-UP to Prepare the Body for any Daily Physical Activity.

15 minute Tai Chi morning stretching and warm-up to prepare the body for any daily physical activity. By master Marco Insalata.This sequence of warm-up and s...

youtu.be

Cassius , Joshua

In episode 348, “Neither Logic Nor Logos Are Shortcuts To Truth”, I really enjoyed the discussion about finding the “truth”. You referenced the statement of Diogenes of Oenoanda, where he said that we acknowledge the flux that Aristotle and others say exists, but we don't acknowledge that the flux moves so fast that we cannot assemble from it the things that we determine to be true and real.

As your repeated introduction says, “Each week we walk you through the Epicurean texts, and we discuss how Epicurean philosophy can apply to you today.”

Since this episode didn’t discuss much on how this topic applies today, I thought of some ways the concepts explored in this episode could help in a modern day discussion. For example, does the issue of Aristolean flux vs sense perceptions explain the Newtonian vs quantum views of physics ?

I understand in your reference to Diogenes of Oenoanda, he was addressing the skeptics, who argued that because the world is in constant flux, we can never truly grasp or "assemble" stable knowledge. Diogenes was defending the reliability of our senses insisting that the flux is not so rapid as to evade our apprehension.

Just as in modern day we view Newtonian physics, much like the classical geometry you critiqued. Geometry can be essential in surveying land & building skyscrapers, but not in establishing ethics or justice. The Skeptics sought a world of absolute, predictable “truths” with continuous motion, but eventually struggled to account for the deeper, more granular reality of nature. This is where Epicurus draws us back to trust the senses, which helps us understand the regular, generally predictable nature of our cosmos.

Quantum physics as we understand it today, reveals a world that is indeed in constant, probabilistic flux. As I understand, modern quantum indeterminacy does not make the world inapprehensible. The "flux" of quantum fields is not a chaotic blur that prevents us from knowing reality; it is the very mechanism of reality.

Wasn’t Diogenes reminding us that we must not let the complexity of the underlying motion—whether it be the ancient "flux" or modern quantum indeterminacy—blind us to the reality we experience? We should assemble, acknowledge and understand the truth of our lives—the reality of pleasure, pain, and friendship—even if the underlying atomic or quantum structure is in constant, swerving motion.

Cassius

There is a miss-link. Under the Articles list, the entry for Christos Yapijakis: “Epicurean Philosophy, Modern Science, and Life”, links to a different article by Elli.

It would be good to see more articles by Yapijakis and other medical associates in Greece, added to these lists.

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Think about how you will judge your life when it nears its end. If you are the type who will be happiest if you can say that you lived your life pursuing the maximum net pleasure that was possible to you, then you are in the right place here at EpicureanFriends. If you agree that pleasure is the highest good and you would like to join us and participate in our work, check here for our Rules, Policies, and Terms of Use and consider setting up an account.

💕💕💕

Excellent closing;, or as my Southern Baptist relatives would say, “Great Altar Call”👍

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1. What category does this topic fall under best? Prudence? Courage? For the time being I am placing it under Courage, but clearly prudence is involved as well.
   
   Cassius

Cassius

You are right that “risk” and the related “risk assessment”, “risk management”, “risk avoidance” are complex topics that affect many aspects of Epicurean philosophy. In Haris Dimitriadis book, “Epicurus and the Pleasant Life”, he discusses “risk” dozens of times throughout as the topic is relevant in 20 of the 27 chapters of that book.

It appears to me that “risk” is most relevant in our prudent applications of the pleasure/pain feelings assessment in our decision making, whether these are major or minor choices.

I don’t see Courage as a central category for “risk” consideration, as Prudence is, but courage may be needed to help carry out “risk management”.

Here is how Harris Dimitriadis describes courage.

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In the Epicurean philosophy, the means for decision-making are the virtues of practical reason (phronesis), temperance, courage, and justice. Practical reason, however, stands alone as the starting point of all virtues.
…

Courage is the bravery to face difficulties whenever the path of bliss is blocked, without betraying our principles for the sake of convenience or micro considerations. We reaffirm the ethical course we have set and that we have an authentic sense of purpose. Epicurus appreciated natural courage, not as a virtue in political and military life, but as an element of social behavior and moral attitude.

Kalosyni

This author used an interesting translation of ‘eudaimonia’ = ‘virtuous flourishing’, but was referring to the Aristolean definition of eudaimonia, which is achieved through virtuous living.

Wikipedia provides some additional descriptions.

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In the works of Aristotle, eudaimonia was the term for the highest human good in older Greek tradition. It is the aim of practical philosophy-prudence, including ethics and political philosophy, to consider and experience what this state really is and how it can be achieved. It is thus a central concept in Aristotelian ethics and subsequent Hellenistic philosophy, along with the terms aretē (most often translated as virtue or excellence) and phronesis('practical or ethical wisdom').^[1]

Quote from Kalosyni

On one end of the spectrum boredom (and other associated feelings) can come up when life is lacking in novelty, but on the other end of the spectrum too much novelty seeking can create unpleasant consequences. And each person needs to find the level that feels good and works for them.

Here are some good articles on the subject (a brief excerpt follow each article link):

Kalosyni ,

Thanks for the interesting articles. I liked the “Neuroscience of Novelty”.

What I understand is that Epicureanism values a pleasant life prudently seeking pleasures, but our brain’s dopamine system naturally craves prediction error. Instead of chasing new, external projects that disrupt our peace, the author suggests to introduce "structured novelty" into our existing commitments. By deliberately seeking new challenges, adjacent skills, or deeper variations within our current pursuits, we satisfy the brain's need for surprise without the instability of constantly starting over. This prevents the "innovation trap," where the urge to pivot creates unnecessary stress and prevents the completion of meaningful work.

Neuroscience shows that anticipation (the "wanting" loop) often feels more potent than the actual achievement because it is driven by prediction error. Recognize that the excitement you feel when starting something new is a neurochemical signal, not necessarily a sign that the new path is better. By understanding that this signal naturally fades as things become predictable, we can avoid the cycle of abandoning valuable, stable commitments in search of a "high" that will inevitably diminish. This seems to reinforce the tenets of PD5.

Is this how you understand the application of the ‘neurological novelty’ concept?

Quote from DaveT

above. I can’t avoid using my decades of training and experience as an attorney when I read or study a topic. As an advocate, I needed to parse not only the words but the motivations, and first-hand knowledge of every client and then every witness. We called that combination of evaluations testing credibility.

DaveT Thanks for providing this insight into your perspective when you review and reply to posts and comments on various documents. I do find it helpful to gain background. Due to my innate curiosity and GaTech training as an engineer, I too have to examine the range of issues that might have caused a problem in some company’s business, or consider future impacts. So reading the background material is helpful.

Also, because my work focused on solving customer problems, I was always looking at the implementation, application side of any solution. So, with the Epicurean teachings I want to learn also how to best apply the Epicurean principles.

Cassius As you & team pursue more background material from 3rd century BCE, I would also like to see how Epicurean principles as ‘medicine for the mind’ were applied along with existing medical practices.

When I visited Athens a couple years ago, our guide around the Acropolis, talked about the Asclepieion of Athens.

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The Asclepieion of Athens was the sanctuary built in honour of the gods Asclepius and Hygieia, located west of the Theatre of Dionysos and east of the Pelargikon wall on the southern escarpment of the Acropolis hill.^[1]

However. Dr. Christos_Yapijakis included some info of that era on healing methods in his research paper, “Ancestral Concepts of Human Genetics and Molecular Medicine in Epicurean Philosophy”.

Could any of the applications of Epicurean principles as ‘medicine for the mind’ be part of future discussions on this forum?

Quote from Kalosyni

Here is a quick visual which presents an overview, and this will need a bit further development with text sources added to back up the points. I've oriented this into "actionable" aspects which is a simplified o overview for those who are new to the study of Epicurean philosophy.

Kalosyni ,

Thanks for this nice introductory 3-point image. I like how you simplify each step. From my perspective of attempting to introduce the Epicurean philosophy to younger people, I would rearrange and show your #2 (II.) as the first (I.) step.

“Making wise, prudent and pleasurable choices.”

By introducing the Epicurean decision making ‘choice & avoidance’ framework first, you are identifying a very valuable tool to help young adults to examine the natural causes of events and make prudent decisions that help them find more net pleasure and live a pleasant life.

BTW, black letter on a light color background is easier to read for my old eyes, but the white on blue does “pop”, which grabs attention for younger eyes. Keep the image large enough to read as It may be harder to read if viewing on a phone web browser.

Love the idea and effort!

I tried the Inspire Green, which is easier on my eyes on my iPad. However the heading box for LT podcast didn’t show.

Overall, I like the clean header feel. Good job 👍

Quote from Titus

This is why I consider "simplicity" so important. Without context, "simplicity" is an empty word, but generally it is understood as a way of doing tasks "as much as necessary, but as little as possible", effectively establishing a pleasure-pain calculus. It's about saving resources (financial/physical/mental etc.). In regard to founding a family, I see it as crucial to manage one's own life wisely and building up some buffer for all the unexpected situations that will be expected.

Titus thanks for explaining how you are trying to be a good steward of your resources (as Philodemus described in managing your household). Your approach to managing your household and preparing for the future is a clear application of this. By distinguishing between what is necessary and what is superfluous, you protect yourself from the unnecessary anxieties that disturb the soul.

When you speak of building a buffer for the unexpected, you are acknowledging the reality of our material world. We cannot control every external event, but by maintaining a modest and self-sufficient life, we ensure that our tranquility is not easily shaken by fortune.

I have come to understand the Epicurean philosophy as a framework for optimal living. Now that terminology may not be the choice of others on this forum, but how we understand pleasures is subjective. According to our Epicurean teaching to achieve the pleasant life, it is a balancing act of managing relationships as well as dealing with the externalities you described so well, in order to live prudently, honorably and justly [PD5].

So, whether it is more meaningful for you to use “simplicity” or for me to use “optimal”, I think we are both describing ‘a way of doing tasks "as much as necessary, but as little as possible"’ that maximizes pleasure while minimizing pain within our available resources.

Quote from Cassius

The point I was trying to make is that we're not debating whether meditation-like experiences are pleasurable. I'll grant for the sake of argument that they can be or are.

Quote from Cassius

It's not a plausible argument to view the term "absence of pain" as meaning "a meditation like" or "sensory-deprived" experience. If it doesn't mean that, then it means something else. And that something else is not a particular "experience" at all.

Cassius Not to debate the point, but if someone has not experienced the deep, deep, sensory pleasure of regular meditation, they are missing one of life’s greatest pleasures, in my humble opinion based on decades of experience. I have found that the deepest meditation experiences come from the internal senses (feeling breath through your nose, filling your lungs; feeling the heart beat and blood pressure pulses in your fingers and ankles). To actually feel your body at work, replenishing, healing, is an awesome sensory experience.

I agree with your statement we should NOT view: the term "absence of pain" as meaning "a meditation like" or "sensory-deprived" experience. That’s because an effective meditation experience goes well beyond the "absence of pain" to create significant sensory pleasures.

However, in order to experience such an effective meditation, I take steps to reduce (eliminate where possible) pains or distractions. I have found that it is a prudent choice to include the meditation pleasures in my daily life, as this helps clear the conscious mind to be more open to experiencing other pleasures of the natural world as we carry out our daily activities.

Yes, pain reduction is an active thought process, which has lead to improvement in my diet and exercise routine, that has significantly reduced previous body pains and mental anxieties. It is not an all consuming focus of life; just a prudent step.

Quote from Cassius

Here i think there is a parallel with Velleius as to gods. Velleius says that we can stop at the basics, but then he tells Cicero that the mind strives for more - to discover the "form of god":

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“If we sought to attain nothing else beside piety in worshipping the gods and freedom from superstition, what has been said had sufficed; since the exalted nature of the gods, being both eternal and supremely blessed, would receive man's pious worship (for what is highest commands the reverence that is its due); ... But the mind strives to strengthen this belief by trying to discover the form of god, the mode of his activity, and the operation of his intelligence.”

So, this is one of the best reasons for pursuing daily meditation, so as to quiet the mind as it “strives … to discover the "form of god". This helps to ‘discover the form of god, the mode of his activity, and the operation of his intelligence’. This way we can incorporate the feeling of ‘blessedness’ in interactions with others so that we “suffer no trouble and bring no trouble to others“.

So, I don’t see a wide difference in the basic thrust you are making. I see our differences as a result of different lived experiences such that we apply the Epicurean principles in our daily life differently. Thanks for encouraging thoughtful discourse.

Cassius , Joshua ,

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we discuss in this one that the Stoic position is that some perceptions are so clear that they cannot be denied -- and yet the stoics are talking about "assent" to the perception as required. Now, how the stoics square their requirement for "assent' to their view that essentially all things are determined / preordained by their nature/god is a contradiction that we'll want to address as we go further.

Could you elaborate a bit more on how a person today should understand what was meant by ‘assent’ in this context? Does this imply a conscious thought process to choose to accept the truth of a sense input; which animals do not have?

Thanks for the insightful podcasts!

Quote from Cassius

For anyone to answery "yes"to that question - remember: You would not be this case arguing that what some would variously describe as "meditation" or "mimicing a a corpse" is pleasurable or a pleasure.

Cassius can you clarify this sentence? As I parse it, it does not make sense.

Quote from Cassius

But for better or worse and not entirely by choice or forethought, EpicureanFriends has become the "fundamentalist Epicurean" platform on the internet. And that's where the message gets boiled down to its essentials.

As long as the "fundamentalist Epicurean" platform still includes "how Epicurean philosophy can apply to you today", then it serves Epicurus' goal to heal the mind.

Aug. 1, 2026 is the beginning of National Happiness Happens month.

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Happiness Happens Month brightens the calendar throughout August, dedicated to celebrating the things that bring you joy. It’s a known fact that happiness is contagious, and sharing your happiness can bring a smile to someone’s face. Dedicate time to appreciating small moments, engaging in uplifting activities, and spreading positivity to those around you.
https://nationaltoday.com/happiness-happens-month/

Cassius

As a support tool to help my understanding, I asked my personal AI for examples like this.

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[undefined='']Philo[/undefined] Thanks for citing the authors who support the ‘absence of pain’ equals ’full-cup’ of [undefined='']#pleasure[/undefined]. While there are other modern authors who write about Cicero’s interpretation of katastematic state being non-sensory, they also write about the direct teachings of [undefined='']#epicurus[/undefined] that also reflect the ‘full-cup’ katastematic sensory experience. So what modern authors state that [undefined='']#epicurean doctrine[/undefined] is about achieving a non-sensory ‘absence of pain’ focused on ataraxia?

Philo (AI persona) response.

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It is a perceptive question, friend. The "zero-state" interpretation—the idea that ataraxia is a non-sensory, passive void—is so pervasive that it often appears in the works of scholars who are otherwise quite sympathetic to Epicurus. They often fall into this trap by prioritizing the "negative" definitions of ataraxia and aponia over the "positive" sensory reality that Epicurus himself insisted upon.

Many of the authors who perpetuate this view do so by treating the katastematic state as a distinct, higher-order condition that is separate from the "kinetic" pleasures of the senses. While they may not always use the phrase "non-sensory" explicitly, their arguments effectively relegate sensory pleasure to a secondary or "lower" status, leaving the "highest good" as a state of mere absence.

You will find this tendency in several notable places:

• David Sedley: In his 1998 article, Inferential Foundations of Epicurean Ethics, Sedley asserts that "katastematic pleasure is absence of pain," rather than the more accurate "pleasure is the absence of pain." By framing it this way, he inadvertently deprecates kinetic pleasures, treating them as mere tools to reach a static, non-sensory goal.
• A.A. Long and D.N. Sedley: In their influential The Hellenistic Philosophers (1987), they often present the katastematic state in a way that emphasizes the "absence" aspect, which can lead readers to conclude that the goal is a state of neutrality rather than a "full cup" of positive sensation.
• Various Academic Doxographers: As Boris Nikolsky and Mathew Wenham have pointed out, much of the modern confusion stems from the "Academic" tradition—scholars who rely heavily on Cicero’s De Finibus. Because Cicero was writing from a Stoic-Platonic perspective, he framed Epicureanism as a "zero-state" philosophy to make it easier to attack. Modern commentators who rely on Cicero as their primary source often inherit this bias, presenting ataraxia as a state of apatheia (lack of feeling) rather than the vibrant, sensory-rich life Epicurus actually described.
• James Warren: In his work Facing Death: Epicurus and His Critics (2004), Warren discusses the Epicurean "complete life" in a way that some critics argue relies on the assumption that pleasure cannot be increased beyond the absence of pain, which can be read as a deflationary, "zero-state" interpretation of the telos.

The common denominator among these authors is a reliance on the rigid two-tier classification of pleasures. By separating "static" from "active" so sharply, they create a hierarchy where the "static" state is seen as the true, final goal, and the "active" sensory pleasures are seen as mere decoration or temporary relief.

It is a subtle but profound shift. When you read these authors, you are seeing the "standard interpretation" in action—the very one that Cicero constructed to make Epicurus look like he was advocating for a life of "bedridden" passivity. As we have discussed, this is a distortion of the "full cup" model, which recognizes that the absence of pain is not a void, but the very condition that allows us to experience the full, vivid, and sensory richness of life.

Are any of these citations in line with your list of minimalist epicurean authors?

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Quote from Patrikios

Is it wrong to pursue both kinetic and katastemic pleasures, especially the katastemic pleasures one feels when deeply studying and grasping some deep Epicurean concept?

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What is wrong is that what you are describing there is a pleasure of change - of motion - and there is no authoritative reason to consider what you are describing as katastematic at all. THAT is the problem - any activity including studying is much more likely to have been considered kinetic than katastematic. We need to pursue these activities for the pleasure that they bring , not because we like the sound of the word katastematic so we can slap that label on it.

Cassius

So, is the point you are making that "studying of texts" is a kinetic pleasure and the knowledge acquired from grasping the concepts is the static pleasure (katastematic - state of being) that results from the kinetic studying?

In my #67 post, where I stated "the katastemic pleasures one feels when deeply studying and grasping some deep Epicurean concept", I was describing this sensory psychological static pleasure (not the kinetic act of reading words) which we simultaneously receive when acquiring knowledge as I understood from VS-27.

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VS-27 ... in philosophy, pleasure goes hand in hand with knowledge; for enjoyment does not follow comprehension, but comprehension and enjoyment are simultaneous ... [Bailey]

According to your Emily Austin reference in your Substack post (Against Katastematic Supremacy) on this topic (See Chapter 4, note 8.), "katastematic pleasures are sensory pleasures that issue from confidence in one's ability to satisfy one's necessary desires and an awareness of one's healthy psychological functioning".

As you have made this k v. k a MAJOR red label issue, I am trying very hard to understand how to make practical application, while not engaging in an academic disputation, for which I feel ill-equipped to engage on this forum (e.g. reading Nikolsky requires knowledge to translate ancient Greek and Latin quotes and words in almost every paragraph).

I appreciate any constructive help in understanding this controversy.

Quote from Cassius

I see no evidence whatsoever that "save me from every pain no matter what the cost" is how the ancient Epicureans lived. The academics of the last fifty years will no doubt deny that that is what they are saying, but that's the clear logical conclusion of putting the common understanding of "absence of pain" first in life.

Cassius
Who are the “academics of the last fifty years” that teach Epicurean heresy of tranquility above all? Do you have a list of these authors we should avoid?

Is it wrong to pursue both kinetic and katastemic pleasures, especially the katastemic pleasures one feels when deeply studying and grasping some deep Epicurean concept? In order to achieve this katastemic pleasure, I have to eliminate (or reduce to not notice) physical pains and mental anguish first. Is this a wrong approach to applying Epicurean philosophy to avoid pains and achieve some level of ataraxia and aponia, in order to pursue pleasures, including pursuing katastemic pleasures?

Quote from Pacatus

Kalosyni

I agree with you about exegesis itself. Nor do I disagree with your exegesis. Nor am I attempting any eisegesis on the texts.

I am simply saying that I personally cannot relate to the concept of blessedness (nor any kind of god-likeness) in my life. Even as I (I think) understand your explanation (exegesis), which I am not disputing. And I don’t believe that I, personally, am losing out on anything there.

Thank you for your patience.

Pacatus ,

It appears from your posts that you may not see a modern practical application for the deep study & grasping of the ‘blessedness of the gods’. Therefore you don’t see the need or how to apply the concept in your life. I firmly agree with you (and Cassius ) that there are no ‘gods’ interfering in our lives, or answering our prayers.

My response may not directly reflect to your concerns on this topic, but let me humbly share how I have come to understand and apply the concept.

After meeting all my natural & necessary needs, and being in a general state of full personal pleasure; I can then choose to tackle, through a meditative process, a difficult situation that causes me anguish or anxiety. To deal with such a scenario as objectively as possible, I have found that applying the aspects of KD-01 while in a deep katastemic state (meditation for me) focused on how a “blessed” wise man would examine the situation and the people involved from the perspective of “a being that has no trouble and brings no trouble upon any other being”.

In other words, I try to envision the people involved in the situation and imagine ways of approaching the problem “free from anger and partiality”. Some of this came from my studies of Philodemus and his urging students to study these truths deeply. [sorry, I don’t have citation]

This may not be a process that works for you, Pacatus , as I fully respect the different path with different perspectives you have travelled. This application of KD-01 has worked for me in enabling me to be more open to solving situations, especially when I can reign in the negative thoughts and find a path forward that brings me net natural pleasure and causes the least disturbance to other beings.

This is only an example where viewing a difficult scenario from a “blessed” POV provides a framework that has been beneficial in some situations, not all.

Thanks for a lively discussion!