LATEST LUCRETIUS TODAY PODCAST (focusing on one of our most important topics): Episode 322 - "Epicurean Moral Outrage Against Socrates" | Website Overview | Forum Navigation Map
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Kalosyni
February 27, 2026 at 8:10 PM Replied to the thread Neither "ataraxia" nor "not ataraxia", but "Joy as the goal".PostHere is a diagram that I just made which has the telos at the top and then "climbs down the ladder of abstraction"...and it is still a work in progress ... open to thoughts and suggestions.
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Kalosyni
February 27, 2026 at 7:28 PM Replied to the thread Neither "ataraxia" nor "not ataraxia", but "Joy as the goal".PostHere is a better article:
[…]
The link:
https://bigthink.com/the-learning-c…of-abstraction/
And another quote:
[…]
And a third quote:
[…] -
Kalosyni
February 27, 2026 at 6:42 PM Replied to the thread Neither "ataraxia" nor "not ataraxia", but "Joy as the goal".Post[…]
I presented several ideas in the first post of this thread (the first point should have been addressed in a separate thread):
Point 1) There is no mandate to spread Epicurean philosophy to the masses
Point 2) There are some who study Epicurean… -
Cassius
February 27, 2026 at 2:58 PM Replied to the thread Episode 322 - EATAQ 04 - Epicurean Moral Outrage Against Socrates.PostEpisode 322 of the Lucretius Today Podcast is now available. This week our episode is entitled: "Epicurean Moral Outrage Against Socrates"
[media]https://www.spreaker.com/episode/70342091/media -
bradley.whitley
February 27, 2026 at 12:45 PM Replied to the thread A Special Birthday Greeting To James!.PostI have been remiss in offering gratitude for this. We have kept busy in learning hedonic calculus and balance even in the midst of a busy time of recovery from sickness and semester exams. He and I have read this post often and pondered it often. He… -
Cassius
February 27, 2026 at 9:30 AM Replied to the thread Neither "ataraxia" nor "not ataraxia", but "Joy as the goal".PostI should also point out that this quotation in post 7 is a long distance from the point where this thread started out, when your advocated "Joy" as the goal ("Neither "ataraxia" nor "not ataraxia", but "Joy as the goal").
That's because katastematic… -
Cassius
February 27, 2026 at 9:01 AM Replied to the thread Neither "ataraxia" nor "not ataraxia", but "Joy as the goal".PostThe part you have quoted there Kalosyni will be read by some people be circular or worse. It does not specifically identify what "happiness" is apart from pleasure. Further, in equating happiness to "katastematic pleasure" in that last sentence, the… -
Kalosyni
February 27, 2026 at 8:30 AM Replied to the thread Neither "ataraxia" nor "not ataraxia", but "Joy as the goal".PostI've copied over from that thread (linked in the above post) on Christos' introductory book, which was shared by Christos.
The following is by Christos Yapijakis:
[…] -
Kalosyni
February 27, 2026 at 7:49 AM Replied to the thread Neither "ataraxia" nor "not ataraxia", but "Joy as the goal".Post[…]
I wanted to mention that at the last Wednesday night Zoom (for Level 03 and above members), we did have a very good discussion on pleasure/happiness/ataraxia. And in the meeting it was said that it isn't an "either/or" because both sides of this are… -
Kalosyni
February 26, 2026 at 7:55 PM Replied to the thread "Choice" and "Avoidance".PostJust for the record...Bailey's translation of PD25 :
"If on each occasion, instead of referring your actions to the end of nature, you turn to some other, nearer, standard, when you are making a choice or an avoidance, your actions will not be consistent… -
Cassius
February 26, 2026 at 5:57 PM Replied to the thread Neither "ataraxia" nor "not ataraxia", but "Joy as the goal".Post[…]
i strongly agree with this. -
Patrikios
February 26, 2026 at 3:32 PM Replied to the thread Episode 321 - EATAQ 03 - The Epicurean Criticism of Socrates For Denouncing Natural Science.Post[…]
Cassius ,
Thanks for including this link to that 25 minute segment (~20:00- 45:00).
Sagan highlights Samos and the Ionian islands as sources of new ideas. They way he shows the sequence of thought is quite helpful, even after reading all of… -
Matteng
February 26, 2026 at 2:18 PM Replied to the thread Neither "ataraxia" nor "not ataraxia", but "Joy as the goal".PostBoth is necessary to fulfill the natural/necessary desire for Eudaimonia, a life of Pleasure.
For Ataraxia and removal of Suffering/Pain we need to be active and pursue Pleasures prudently. To hide fearful of pain in a cave let you painfully starve full… -
DaveT
February 26, 2026 at 1:03 PM Replied to the thread "Choice" and "Avoidance".Post -
Kalosyni
February 26, 2026 at 9:29 AM Replied to the thread Thomas Jefferson's "Head and Heart" Letter.PostHere is a Medium article which tells about Maria Cosway, to whom the "Head and Heart" letter was addressed (for any who are interested in history and art). It is very likely that Epicurean philosophy would have been discussed in the social circle… -
Joshua
February 25, 2026 at 8:55 PM Replied to the thread Neither "ataraxia" nor "not ataraxia", but "Joy as the goal".PostI agree with Cassius on pleasure, but I do want to add something relevant to joy. This comes from Julien Offray de la Mettrie's Anti-Seneca; many here will recognize this from Charles 's work on the French materialists.
[…] -
Don
February 25, 2026 at 3:38 PM Replied to the thread Welcome MCTIMKAT!.PostWelcome aboard, mctimkat -
Cassius
February 25, 2026 at 10:33 AM Replied to the thread Neither "ataraxia" nor "not ataraxia", but "Joy as the goal".Post[…]
I agree that it is important to emphasize joy, and the failure to do so is a big problem in modern Epicurean discussion.
However, from Diogenes Laertius:
And Epicurus in the work on Choice speaks as follows: ‘Freedom from trouble in the mind and from… -
Kalosyni
February 25, 2026 at 10:08 AM Posted the thread Neither "ataraxia" nor "not ataraxia", but "Joy as the goal".ThreadThere is no mandate by gods that Epicurean philosophical thought should be promoted for the sake of progeny or for the future benefit of humanity (unlike various world religions) and there is no mandate to convert people to Epicureanism. Given that this… -
wbernys
February 25, 2026 at 3:07 AM Replied to the thread Welcome MCTIMKAT!.PostWelcome MCTIMKAT! -
Cassius
February 24, 2026 at 5:27 PM Replied to the thread Welcome MCTIMKAT!.PostWelcome MCTIMKAT!
He tells me --
As I approach my 70th birthday, I have been reviewing my life up to this milestone point, and in so doing have developed a strong desire to consolidate the experiences of those years into a coherent philosophy of living to… -
Cassius
February 24, 2026 at 5:25 PM Posted the thread Welcome MCTIMKAT!.ThreadWelcome mctimkat
There is one last step to complete your registration:
All new registrants must post a response to this message here in this welcome thread (we do this in order to minimize spam registrations).
You must post your response within 24 hours,… -
Cassius
February 23, 2026 at 9:29 AM Replied to the thread Critique of the Control Dichotomy as a Useful Strategy.PostTo those reading along I would amplify what Daniel has said about 1000 times. He's approaching the subject as it is generally approached nowadays - sort of clinically. Yes indeed if you define 1 as "courage" and 2 as "justice" and "complete happiness" as… -
Kalosyni
February 23, 2026 at 9:00 AM Replied to the thread What kinds of goals do Epicureans set for themselves?.PostFrom the Letter to Menoeceus we see in the opening paragraph that one should study philosophy both when young and when old, and interestingly it does occassionally seem that here on the forum we have a mix of both younger (college age) and older… -
Daniel188
February 23, 2026 at 7:01 AM Replied to the thread Critique of the Control Dichotomy as a Useful Strategy.Post[…]
It simply doesn't work that way. It's impossible to completely "not worry" about certain basic needs. Their absence will always worsen the quality of life. According to the Stoics, theoretically, even if you were stranded on a lonely island, you would… -
Joshua
February 22, 2026 at 1:07 PM Replied to the thread Sunday February 22, 2026 - Zoom Meeting - Lucretius Book Review - Starting Book One Line 174.Post[…] -
EdGenX
February 22, 2026 at 12:24 PM Replied to the thread Sunday February 22, 2026 - Zoom Meeting - Lucretius Book Review - Starting Book One Line 174.PostLooking for link -
Cassius
February 22, 2026 at 12:23 PM Replied to the thread Sunday February 22, 2026 - Zoom Meeting - Lucretius Book Review - Starting Book One Line 174.PostVery good! -
EdGenX
February 22, 2026 at 12:23 PM Replied to the thread Sunday February 22, 2026 - Zoom Meeting - Lucretius Book Review - Starting Book One Line 174.PostI am able to attend! -
EdGenX
February 22, 2026 at 12:22 PM Replied to the thread Sunday 12:30 ET Zoom - Epicurean Philosophy Discussion - How to Attend.PostI just got in, I am able to attend! -
Don
February 22, 2026 at 8:45 AM Replied to the thread Critique of the Control Dichotomy as a Useful Strategy.PostEchecrates
By Zeus, Phaedo, they were right. It seems to me that he made those matters astonishingly clear, to anyone with even a little sense.
Ἐχεκράτης
νὴ Δία, ὦ Φαίδων, εἰκότως γε: θαυμαστῶς γάρ μοι δοκεῖ… -
Cassius
February 22, 2026 at 8:23 AM Replied to the thread Critique of the Control Dichotomy as a Useful Strategy.PostMatteng here is another example of that problem of granting false presumptions, this from Plato's Phaedo:
[…]
Hell, no, Socrates!
I do NOT grant you that there is an "absolute" beauty and goodness and greatness!
Read onward from there, and you see what a… -
Cassius
PostFebruary 22, 2026 at 8:08 AM So the most relevant section comes near the end, when Socrates feels challenged by the argument that the soul might be longer-lasting than the body, but still might not exist forever. The main part starts with this opening:
[…] -
Don
February 22, 2026 at 7:34 AM Replied to the thread "Prayer" vs "Choice and Avoidance".PostOh, in response to Kalosyni 's thread title, "Prayer" vs "Choice and Avoidance", I see choice and rejection (see other threads for my rants on "avoidance" as a translation of φεύγω) as a tactic of Epicurean living practice. Honestly, if we… -
Cassius
PostFebruary 22, 2026 at 7:13 AM Anyone who wants to defend Socrates needs to be sure they have read the full Phaedo. Here's more of a taste of what Epicurus must have considered to be poison worse than hemlock. This is Socrates speaking, There is much more, and worse.
[…] -
Don
February 22, 2026 at 7:11 AM Replied to the thread "Prayer" vs "Choice and Avoidance".PostInteresting topic. Thanks for starting this Kalosyni !
I fully agree that the popular notion of the word prayer is "Oh God, I know you're busy but I need a favor." I'm intentionally being flippant, but this idea isn't new. Lucian gave us Icaromenippus,… -
Cassius
PostFebruary 22, 2026 at 6:40 AM That is exactly my reaction Don. And i am sorely embarrassed that this forum has been going for some fifteen years without my recognizing this adequately.
Mea maxima culpa!
For me, this places a lot of what I've been reading about Epicurus in a very new… -
Don
February 22, 2026 at 6:14 AM Replied to the thread A Full Comparison of Epicurus vs Aristotle.Postfwiw, here's where I started my dive into Nichomachean Ethics:
https://sites.google.com/view/epicurean…omachean-ethics
I'll admit I abandoned it after awhile due to lack of time (and interest). Maybe I'll go back in at some point and hit specific passages,… -
Don
PostFebruary 22, 2026 at 6:08 AM […]
By Zeus, *THIS* is the basis of Western philosophy??
*THIS* is why society or culture or academia refer to the natural philosophers as *PRE-SOCRATIC* and largely dismiss them as irrelevant???
I admit I've never heard of the "second sailing" but, from my… -
Don
February 22, 2026 at 12:11 AM Replied to the thread Critique of the Control Dichotomy as a Useful Strategy.Post[…]
This idea occurs as PD5, VS5, and in Menoikeus, so it must have been important. I like Peter Saint-Andre's rendering:
It is not possible to live joyously without also living wisely and beautifully and rightly, nor to live wisely and beautifully and… -
Cassius
February 21, 2026 at 7:07 PM Replied to the thread Critique of the Control Dichotomy as a Useful Strategy.PostMatteng that is why I am finding the material we are covering on the podcast now so valuable. I too was attracted to Stoicism (many years ago now) and for a long time I favored it. But as I look back now I see that i should have immediately tried to… -
Matteng
February 21, 2026 at 4:08 PM Replied to the thread Critique of the Control Dichotomy as a Useful Strategy.PostCassius Thank you, that really sums it up. After distancing myself more and more from Stoicism, when I read their arguments I'm still occasionally drawn to the dark side
And as you write, if one accepts their premises too quickly, one is right in the… -
Cassius
ThreadFebruary 21, 2026 at 4:00 PM This week we will pick up at Lucretius line 174, and we will talk further about Dave's question as to Lucretius' use of the word "seeds"
https://handbook.epicureanfriends.com/sbslucretius/#1-174 -
Cassius
February 21, 2026 at 1:57 PM Replied to the thread Critique of the Control Dichotomy as a Useful Strategy.PostGoing back to the recent question in which the Stoic article was cited, I want to add this:
[…]
Again, the entire discussion in the article gets off to a bad start by failing to be clear what is meant by happiness. But even within the general framework of… -
Cassius
February 20, 2026 at 9:19 PM Replied to the thread Critique of the Control Dichotomy as a Useful Strategy.PostMatt there is something else I want to add. I see that you are going through a long sequence of statements about Stoicism and analyzing the logic of them. Anytime I get confronted with a long intricate chain argument, I always remember this from Lucian's… -
Joshua
February 20, 2026 at 8:58 PM Replied to the thread Episode 322 - EATAQ 04 - Epicurean Moral Outrage Against Socrates.Post[…] -
Cassius
February 20, 2026 at 5:58 PM Replied to the thread Critique of the Control Dichotomy as a Useful Strategy.Post[…]
i would say from the very first sentence you are not defining what happiness means, so that it would be unproductive to evaluate anything after that starting point without more specifity. -
Matteng
February 20, 2026 at 5:42 PM Replied to the thread Critique of the Control Dichotomy as a Useful Strategy.PostI try to deconstruct it a little bit, point for point, my statements come after "=>":
[…]
=> 1) Compatible with Epicurean Philosophy
2) questionable
[…]
=> 3) Yes ok, but Pain Signals are important Information for life/Health/self preservation
[…]
=> 4,5) No,… -
Cassius
February 20, 2026 at 4:49 PM Replied to the thread Episode 322 - EATAQ 04 - Epicurean Moral Outrage Against Socrates.Post -
Cassius
February 20, 2026 at 3:10 PM Posted the thread Episode 322 - EATAQ 04 - Epicurean Moral Outrage Against Socrates.ThreadWelcome to Episode 322 of Lucretius Today. This is a podcast dedicated to the poet Lucretius, who wrote "On The Nature of Things," the most complete presentation of Epicurean philosophy left to us from the ancient world. Each week we walk you through the…
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