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Don
May 17, 2026 at 10:20 AM Replied to the thread Was Epicurus a Psychological Hedonist, an Ethical Hedonist, Both, or Neither?.Post[…]
That quote of mine out of context doesn't really convey what I said.
He is not saying we ought to follow pleasure. To my mind, he's saying we do. Living beings do. What he is doing is calling us to do this deliberately, to understand how to do what… -
Cassius
May 17, 2026 at 8:56 AM Replied to the thread Was Epicurus a Psychological Hedonist, an Ethical Hedonist, Both, or Neither?.Post[…]
Ok we are at least temporily on different sides of that phrasing. I think he is saying that because nature does tell us to follow pleasure, we should follow pleasure if we want to be happy. Other people can choose other gioals and other paths but… -
Don
May 17, 2026 at 8:11 AM Replied to the thread Was Epicurus a Psychological Hedonist, an Ethical Hedonist, Both, or Neither?.PostI'm rethinking that, I don't see an is/ought problem here.
Living beings pursue pleasure and avoid pain.
Epicurus does, to my perspective, state this as an observation of the way things are. A fact of nature.
He is not saying we ought to follow pleasure. To… -
Cassius
May 17, 2026 at 7:54 AM Replied to the thread Episode 334 - Not Yet Rcorded.PostSo it seems I've been repeating the Epicurean formulation " all sensations are true " for many years without fully appreciating that some people (the Stoics) say that some sensations are true and others are false.
I think I've tended to flip back and… -
Cassius
May 17, 2026 at 7:49 AM Replied to the thread Episode 334 - Not Yet Rcorded.PostI can't find a good authoritative page I can screen clip but at the hazard of it being wrong here is chatgpt:
VII.46 is where Diogenes is summarizing Stoic epistemology. The Greek wording varies slightly by edition, but the key line containing katalepsis… -
Cassius
May 17, 2026 at 7:37 AM Replied to the thread Episode 334 - Not Yet Rcorded.PostHere's the Perseus link from which we can look for variations of katalepsis:
https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?do….perseus-grc1:7 -
Cassius
May 17, 2026 at 7:30 AM Replied to the thread Episode 334 - Not Yet Rcorded.PostApparently katalepsis is in here somewhere:
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Lives_of_…ers/Book_VII#45
45. The study of syllogisms they declare to be of the greatest service, as showing us what is capable of yielding demonstration; and this contributes much… -
Cassius
May 17, 2026 at 7:27 AM Replied to the thread Was Epicurus a Psychological Hedonist, an Ethical Hedonist, Both, or Neither?.Post[…]
Yes I need to as well. I am concerned that what we are going to find is that certain people reach conclusions from this debate that you and I would consider absurd, and therefore we don't imagine that it's necessary to kick back against.
There's only… -
Cassius
May 17, 2026 at 7:23 AM Replied to the thread Episode 334 - Not Yet Rcorded.PostThanks Don. By the time of DL he'd have been inundated by the Stoic v Skeptic debate and surely would have compared Stoic vs Epicurean views on prolepsis. "A sort of" presumably indicates parallels but not exactly the same (?)
I want to go looking for… -
Don
May 17, 2026 at 7:10 AM Replied to the thread Episode 334 - Not Yet Rcorded.PostFWIW, katalepsis shows up in Diogenes Laertius:
33] By preconception they mean a sort of apprehension or a right opinion or notion, or universal idea stored in the mind ; that is, a recollection of an external object often presented,
Τὴν δὲ… -
Don
May 17, 2026 at 7:00 AM Replied to the thread Was Epicurus a Psychological Hedonist, an Ethical Hedonist, Both, or Neither?.Post[…]
[…]
Exactly, humans can choose to undergo pain in the pursuit of pleasure. I've cited several run of the mill examples in this thread and included the quote above as a rebuttal to other points.
[…]
[…]
Quite right. All living beings are not Epicureans.… -
Cassius
May 17, 2026 at 6:39 AM Replied to the thread Episode 334 - Not Yet Rcorded.PostFor comparison, the key section of Diogenes Laertius 12:
https://handbook.epicureanfriends.com/sbsdlx/#31
I'll quote here the HICKS version just to highlight how the underlined part is a very critical section to look at closely. Bailey and Yonge say here… -
Cassius
May 17, 2026 at 6:30 AM Replied to the thread Episode 334 - Not Yet Rcorded.PostThis short section from the Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy on "Ancient Greek Skepticism" is also right on point:
ii. Attack on the Stoics
In general, the Stoics were the ideal target for the skeptics; for, their confidence in the areas of… -
Cassius
May 17, 2026 at 6:23 AM Replied to the thread Episode 334 - Not Yet Rcorded.PostIn today's episode I want us to take the time to read Wikipedia's definition of "kataleptsis" as I think it's going to help us to keep this in mind as we proceed further:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katalepsis
The current version is relatively short and… -
Cassius
May 17, 2026 at 6:14 AM Replied to the thread Was Epicurus a Psychological Hedonist, an Ethical Hedonist, Both, or Neither?.Post[…]
That would cover my view as well on most everything anyone has ever said about this here on the forum that I am aware of, and I would say for the reason that you state in the next line I quote from you below.
[…]
Clearly true. The more I read from the… -
wbernys
May 17, 2026 at 4:14 AM Replied to the thread Was Epicurus a Psychological Hedonist, an Ethical Hedonist, Both, or Neither?.PostSomething to add to what Don said. I would also wanna add Torquatus and Cicero quotes which seems pretty explicit. Hope this gets added to the FAQ. The main thing which convinced me is throughout the entire book On Moral Ends Torquatus defends… -
Don
May 16, 2026 at 11:15 PM Replied to the thread Was Epicurus a Psychological Hedonist, an Ethical Hedonist, Both, or Neither?.PostHonestly, I don't care what phrase is used. I've seen Epicurus described as a psychological hedonist, an ethical hedonist, a hedonist. Whatever. Eventually it comes down to hammering an ancient peg into a modern hole, so it only has limited value as a… -
Cassius
May 16, 2026 at 9:22 PM Replied to the thread New Epicurean Substack: Untroubled.PostI just realized that I forgot to include something that I always try to mention when the subject of Tim O'Keefe or any other professor comes up.
I try not to judge Tim O'Keefe or really even Emily Austin as primarily advocates for Epicurean philosophy. As… -
Cassius
May 16, 2026 at 9:14 PM Replied to the thread Was Epicurus a Psychological Hedonist, an Ethical Hedonist, Both, or Neither?.Post[…]
That's part of my unease with the entire discussion - I am not aware that there is a single authoritative statement of what psychological hedonism really means, or what should be taken to be its implications. I don't have any problem with the idea… -
Don
May 16, 2026 at 9:00 PM Replied to the thread Was Epicurus a Psychological Hedonist, an Ethical Hedonist, Both, or Neither?.Post[…]
I'm more receptive to the argument from infants and animals.
[…]
An infant is fully human, just not a fully formed adult. Same with animals, they are also living beings. Epicurus' argument is that all living beings pursue pleasure and flee pain. Animals… -
Todd
May 16, 2026 at 8:30 PM Replied to the thread Was Epicurus a Psychological Hedonist, an Ethical Hedonist, Both, or Neither?.Post[…]
My response to the arguments against psychological hedonism there would be as follows:
Psychological hedonism only claims that people pursue pleasure, not that they succeed in obtaining it.
The individual is still faced with the problem of predicting… -
Cassius
May 16, 2026 at 7:57 PM Replied to the thread Was Epicurus a Psychological Hedonist, an Ethical Hedonist, Both, or Neither?.PostI can see the arguments on both sides and don't have a lot more to add at the moment, but I am adding a summary of what I understand the positions to be into the FAQ at the following entry:
https://www.epicureanfriends.com/wcf/faq-questi…oth-or-neither/ -
Cassius
May 16, 2026 at 6:43 PM Replied to the thread Was Epicurus a Psychological Hedonist, an Ethical Hedonist, Both, or Neither?.Post[…]
That's very interesting. Don do you agree with that too? -
TauPhi
May 16, 2026 at 4:58 PM Commented on the image The Nature of Existence is Atoms and Void..Comment (Image/Video)Based on David Sedley's 'Lucretius and the Transformation of Greek Wisdom' (1988), one book of 'On Nature' was equivalent to 80 pages of modern book. That's around 20k words. 'On Nature' in total would be around 3000 pages today. Meaningful fragments of… -
Todd
May 16, 2026 at 4:56 PM Replied to a comment by Raphael Raul on the image The Nature of Existence is Atoms and Void..Reply (Image/Video) -
Don
May 16, 2026 at 4:31 PM Replied to the thread Was Epicurus a Psychological Hedonist, an Ethical Hedonist, Both, or Neither?.Post[…]
I would concur with this analysis, with emphasis added. -
Todd
May 16, 2026 at 4:15 PM Replied to the thread Was Epicurus a Psychological Hedonist, an Ethical Hedonist, Both, or Neither?.Post[…]
We are coming at this from different perspectives.
You seem to be looking at this (psychological hedonism) as an argument for pursuing pleasure consciously. I agree that it is not a great tool for that because it tends to make people dig in their… -
Don
May 16, 2026 at 3:58 PM Replied to the thread Was Epicurus a Psychological Hedonist, an Ethical Hedonist, Both, or Neither?.Post[…]
That seems a little milquetoast. It's true, but Pleasure Is The Goal/End/Telos seems to be fundamental truth in how nature works.
I'm not advocating for arguing with blue-faced people about their motivations. If they desire to live in anger, fear, and… -
Raphael Raul
May 16, 2026 at 3:56 PM Commented on the image The Nature of Existence is Atoms and Void..Comment (Image/Video)Here is an illustration using a segment of a painting of mine that depicts the statement, "The Nature of Existence is Atoms and Void," a citation from Plutarch, taken from either of two lost texts of Epicurus: "On Nature" or "On atoms and the Void."… -
Cassius
PostMay 16, 2026 at 3:53 PM The psychological hedonism discussion quickly began to overwhelm the original theme of this thread, so I moved that to the existing recent thread below. Let's continue "psychological hedonism" there and the the prolepsis issues here.
Was Epicurus a… -
Don
May 16, 2026 at 3:47 PM Replied to the thread Was Epicurus a Psychological Hedonist, an Ethical Hedonist, Both, or Neither?.Post[…]
This is the bedrock foundation of what it means for "Pleasure is the Goal." Pleasure is THE motivating factor behind all decisions, choices, actions. The goal of Epicurean philosophy is to follow the Goal of Nature wisely and not haphazardly or to… -
Cassius
May 16, 2026 at 3:44 PM Replied to the thread Was Epicurus a Psychological Hedonist, an Ethical Hedonist, Both, or Neither?.Post[…]
[…]
If someone is willing to lie to themselves, what purpose does it serve to engage with them?
Is this not just a kind of pointless "psychologizing" that leads nowhere?
People can be mistaken. People can lie to themselves. Is it not enough simply to… -
Todd
May 16, 2026 at 3:33 PM Replied to the thread Was Epicurus a Psychological Hedonist, an Ethical Hedonist, Both, or Neither?.Post[…]
Also, I wouldn't argue with people about this, especially if they are prone to getting blue in the face. Questioning someone's self-image or motivations is unlikely to go well.
Mainly I see it as a useful tool for understanding other people's actions. … -
Raphael Raul
May 16, 2026 at 3:33 PM Uploaded the image The Nature of Existence is Atoms and Void..Image/Video
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Todd
May 16, 2026 at 3:28 PM Replied to the thread Was Epicurus a Psychological Hedonist, an Ethical Hedonist, Both, or Neither?.Post[…]
Q: Why do you want to do the right thing?
A1: For it's own sake (translation: believing that I did "the right thing" will give me more pleasure than believing I did the wrong thing).
A2: Heaven/hell (obvious) -
DaveT
May 16, 2026 at 3:26 PM Replied to the thread Was Epicurus a Psychological Hedonist, an Ethical Hedonist, Both, or Neither?.Post[…]
Please clarify what it is when you said this is where you lose the trail of "why this is a productive theory or productive position to take." -
Cassius
May 16, 2026 at 3:08 PM Replied to the thread Was Epicurus a Psychological Hedonist, an Ethical Hedonist, Both, or Neither?.Post[…]
I see your logic in that, but this is where I lose the trail of why this is a productive theory to pursue or position to take. -
Don
May 16, 2026 at 2:59 PM Replied to the thread Was Epicurus a Psychological Hedonist, an Ethical Hedonist, Both, or Neither?.Post[…]
I would say they're lying to themselves because they despise the idea of pleasure. -
Cassius
May 16, 2026 at 2:58 PM Replied to the thread Was Epicurus a Psychological Hedonist, an Ethical Hedonist, Both, or Neither?.Post[…]
What about those who would argue til they are blue in the face that that do what they do "Because they believe it's the right thing to do, regardless of whether it gives me pleasure or not, and I know that often it won't." -
Todd
May 16, 2026 at 2:51 PM Replied to the thread Was Epicurus a Psychological Hedonist, an Ethical Hedonist, Both, or Neither?.Post[…]
If you're asking what I personally believe, then I agree with psychological hedonism.
To avoid misunderstanding, I would add that many (most?) people don't really pursue pleasure in a conscious way. They tell themselves they are pursuing something more… -
Don
May 16, 2026 at 2:50 PM Replied to the thread Was Epicurus a Psychological Hedonist, an Ethical Hedonist, Both, or Neither?.Post[…]
I would have to dig in, but my first gut response is him stating pleasure is the telos, the goal, the summum bonum, the "that" to which everything points in the end. Not sometimes. Not should. Not in certain circumstances. You dig and question… -
Cassius
May 16, 2026 at 2:34 PM Replied to the thread Was Epicurus a Psychological Hedonist, an Ethical Hedonist, Both, or Neither?.PostYes I was thinking of exactly that from Torquatus is what I would cite myself. But I am not at all sure that is what is meant.
Todd what is your view on the psychological hedonism question? My own views are not set in stone on this. -
Todd
May 16, 2026 at 2:28 PM Replied to the thread Was Epicurus a Psychological Hedonist, an Ethical Hedonist, Both, or Neither?.Post[…]
Cicero seems to interpret the Epicureans as saying that (FWIW):
[…] -
Cassius
PostMay 16, 2026 at 2:24 PM […]
OK now I see what you are saying for sure - that clarifies it.
I'm going to have to think about this before responding further. I'm definitely under the influence of recent reading in Academic Questions.
The point i want to reflect about is this: As… -
Cassius
May 16, 2026 at 2:18 PM Replied to the thread Was Epicurus a Psychological Hedonist, an Ethical Hedonist, Both, or Neither?.Post[…]
That would be what I understand is meant by "psychological hedonism," but what statement of Epicurus would you cite to support your belief that he would say that? -
Todd
May 16, 2026 at 12:53 PM Replied to the thread Was Epicurus a Psychological Hedonist, an Ethical Hedonist, Both, or Neither?.Post[…]
The issue is pursuing pain as a means to greater pleasure vs pursuing pain as the telos.
I don't think there can be any disagreement that we can and do pursue pain as a means.
I'm not sure what Epicurus thought, but I think I agree with Don that no one… -
Todd
PostMay 16, 2026 at 12:35 PM […]
To elaborate a bit more (still following DeWitt here)...
Thetwo most well-knownonly positive examples of anticipations from Epicurus himself are justice and the gods. Do we get a prolepsis of justice from repeatedly seeing examples of it (maybe… -
Don
May 16, 2026 at 12:31 PM Replied to the thread Was Epicurus a Psychological Hedonist, an Ethical Hedonist, Both, or Neither?.Post[…]
I would agree that Epicurus says we can "consciously choose to pursue pain" but I don't necessarily agree about why someone would "consciously" do it. If someone is deliberately, "consciously" going to inflict pain on themselves or others, they're… -
Don
PostMay 16, 2026 at 12:19 PM My possibly idiosyncratic position on Epicurean prolepsis, filtered through possibly a modern lens, is that prolepsis is the faculty that allows us to make sense of the ever-flowing flood of sense perceptions coming into our physical and mental senses.… -
Todd
May 16, 2026 at 12:15 PM Replied to the thread Was Epicurus a Psychological Hedonist, an Ethical Hedonist, Both, or Neither?.Post[…]
Not in fact. Only in expectation.
And I would say any classification of specific desires has to be taken as more or less of a generalization that (even in expectation) might differ for different people and in different circumstances.
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