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Cassius
July 10, 2026 at 4:04 AM Replied to the thread Instances of the Sage breaking the law? From Plutarch.Post[…]
I agree that this is an important consideration. It would have been obvious to Plutarch and Epicurus that the law sometimes forbids in ways that are unjust, and Epicurus' views of justice clearly show that circumstances can change and agreements can… -
Don
July 9, 2026 at 10:08 PM Replied to the thread Instances of the Sage breaking the law? From Plutarch.PostSee also
[ U340 ]
Hippolytus, "Philosophical Questions," (Refutation of all Heresies, I) 22.5 [p. 572.14 Diels.]: He {Epicurus} concluded that the souls of men are dissolved along with their bodies, just as also they were produced along with them; these,… -
wbernys
July 9, 2026 at 9:24 PM Posted the thread Instances of the Sage breaking the law? From Plutarch.ThreadWanted to establish this thread for more detailed discussion of this fragment.
[…]
First of all, it is likely Plutarch is being typically unfair here, as i imagine right after this Epicurus may have mentioned examples like helping a friend, or acquiring… -
Kalosyni
July 9, 2026 at 6:43 PM Replied to the thread During the time of Epicurus, who could read well enough to study philosophy?.Post[…]
I'll look into fixing that at some point. -
Cassius
July 9, 2026 at 5:13 PM Replied to the thread Athenian Epicurean Program on Thomas Jefferson And Epicurus.PostI've sent an email to Christos but it's late in Greece so I presume it will be some time before i hear a response. -
Don
July 9, 2026 at 4:44 PM Replied to the thread During the time of Epicurus, who could read well enough to study philosophy?.PostThe (majority of those) references in that Google amalgamation are atrocious. -
Cassius
July 9, 2026 at 4:42 PM Replied to the thread Athenian Epicurean Program on Thomas Jefferson And Epicurus.Post[…]
Sure let me see what I can do..... -
Patrikios
July 9, 2026 at 4:41 PM Replied to the thread Athenian Epicurean Program on Thomas Jefferson And Epicurus.Post[…]
Thanks, Cassius for alerting us. I’ve registered for the July 25th session.
Would you feel comfortable reaching out to either of the speakers to get a copy/url for the video of their June 27 session?
[…] -
Cassius
July 9, 2026 at 3:20 PM Replied to the thread The Relationship of Happiness and Blessedness.Post[…]
And that's why I see this as relevant to the other thread on how widespread literacy was in the ancient world, and why it grew so well in the Roman world in particular. When you are practical-minded and have limited time to pore over abstract texts,… -
Pacatus
July 9, 2026 at 2:49 PM Replied to the thread The Relationship of Happiness and Blessedness.PostI have become more and more a “one day at a time” kind of guy. And although I might draw from other sources where it seems helpful, it is mostly Epicurean philosophy that helps me with that. I think of myself as “mostly Epicurean” – it’s… -
Cassius
July 9, 2026 at 2:25 PM Replied to the thread The Relationship of Happiness and Blessedness.Post[…]
I 100% agree Pacatus, and while also not denigrating any sincere Epicurean's argument about this, I think it's very very dangerous to look at it that way. Human life can and should target conceptual ideals as a way to visualize the best life, as a way… -
Pacatus
July 9, 2026 at 2:10 PM Replied to the thread The Relationship of Happiness and Blessedness.Post[…]
This is exactly the kind of ideal (in the sense of ultimate goal or telos) I no longer entertain, let alone strive for – like Nirvana or Bodhi or “big Satori.” I just let that kind of thing go – relaxing from it, as it were.
Note: Speaking only for… -
Kalosyni
July 9, 2026 at 2:01 PM Replied to the thread During the time of Epicurus, who could read well enough to study philosophy?.PostI find this facinating, so I am continuing to share:
Google query: was the cost of papyrus the reason why there aren't many of epicurus' writings left to us today?
No, the cost of papyrus was not the primary reason why Epicurus’ writings were lost. While… -
Kalosyni
July 9, 2026 at 1:42 PM Replied to the thread The Relationship of Happiness and Blessedness.PostThere is a difference between "well-being" and "blessedness"...
Apologies, as this is generated from Google query: how does blessedness differ from eudaimonia?
In ancient Greek philosophy, Eudaimonia (εὐδαιμονία) is the process of active human… -
Cassius
July 9, 2026 at 1:31 PM Replied to the thread Welcome Max Duboff.PostI just posted this in another thread, but since it is directly applicable to this discussion I'll duplicate it. Max, would you disagree with this summary? (As we all know these engines like to tell us what we want to hear, so let's presume this has been… -
Kalosyni
July 9, 2026 at 1:29 PM Replied to the thread During the time of Epicurus, who could read well enough to study philosophy?.PostGoogle query: If Epicurus wrote 300 books, then was he wealthy since the cost of papyrus was a significant expense?
Yes, Epicurus was relatively wealthy by the standards of ancient Athens, allowing him to afford the vast amounts of papyrus required to… -
Cassius
July 9, 2026 at 1:27 PM Replied to the thread During the time of Epicurus, who could read well enough to study philosophy?.Post[…]
Had to be frequent, and I would say likely had to repeat and focus on key points rather than deliver (for example) a Lucretius-length monologue. -
Kalosyni
July 9, 2026 at 1:26 PM Replied to the thread During the time of Epicurus, who could read well enough to study philosophy?.PostGoogle Query: was writing on or copying onto papyrus costly at 300 bc?
At 300 BC, blank papyrus was a significant expense, generally costing a few days' wages for an unskilled laborer. However, the act of copying or writing made books exceptionally… -
Don
July 9, 2026 at 1:21 PM Replied to the thread During the time of Epicurus, who could read well enough to study philosophy?.Post[…]
The hetairai were more "free" than wives or other women, so I would think it was primarily they who attended. Women were more free in Roman settings than Greek. -
DaveT
July 9, 2026 at 12:57 PM Replied to the thread During the time of Epicurus, who could read well enough to study philosophy?.PostAs I thought about this question, I remembered that the only way of sharing written scrolls was to have someone manually copy it. Since this likely was an expensive proposition done by skilled scribes (No Jeff Bezos types) there were probably rather few… -
Pacatus
July 9, 2026 at 11:42 AM Replied to the thread The Relationship of Happiness and Blessedness.PostDon : Not intrepid.
We've exchanged this before, but I use both terms when translating (mostly for myself) εὐδαιμονία: i.e. "happy well-being." -
Don
July 9, 2026 at 11:34 AM Replied to the thread The Relationship of Happiness and Blessedness.PostFWIW From my Menoikeus commentary:
μακάριον
This word is often translated as "blessed, fortunate, wealthy, 'well-off.'" There appears to be no certain etymology of the root [makar] or the longer form [makarios/on]. It appears to possibly have something to… -
Cassius
July 9, 2026 at 11:23 AM Replied to the thread The Relationship of Happiness and Blessedness.PostHere's my view:
I would agree with the direction you are coming from Pacatus and "happiness" is the term I prefer to use for the reasonable human goal.
I'd also say it appears that just as today, Epicurus' time was filled with religious speculation and… -
Cassius
July 9, 2026 at 11:15 AM Replied to the thread The Relationship of Happiness and Blessedness.PostNo problem Pacatus I think the main part of the thread to which your refer is winding down with the opposing positions clearly stated -
Your question may go on longer so I'll move to another area. -
Pacatus
July 9, 2026 at 11:00 AM Replied to the thread The Relationship of Happiness and Blessedness.PostI know this has been discussed before, but I forget.
What exactly do we mean by “blessedness” (in simple terms)? It seems to me something like “sainthood” (say, in the sense of Orthodox Christianity – not the Lutheran “sainthood of all believers”.)
It… -
Pacatus
July 9, 2026 at 10:50 AM Replied to the thread During the time of Epicurus, who could read well enough to study philosophy?.Post[…]
And there were learned scribes (often slaves) to whom letters and texts could be dictated, to be read aloud to recipients – serving a function akin to professional secretaries today, which you describe and which likely fit into the “highly… -
Kalosyni
July 9, 2026 at 9:39 AM Replied to the thread During the time of Epicurus, who could read well enough to study philosophy?.PostFurther on this...four categories, and also who was left out...
Google AI query: which classes in ancient athens in 300 bc had both the interest and time for studying or hearing about epicurean philosophy?
Epicurean philosophy—founded by Epicurus when he… -
Don
July 8, 2026 at 10:36 PM Replied to the thread Welcome Max Duboff.PostFWIW, here are two threads from a few years ago where the katastematic discussion was taking place:
RE: Is pleasure as the natural goal of life falsifiable? Confidence in Katastematic Pleasure I think I still generally agree with what I posted over… -
Don
July 8, 2026 at 8:52 PM Replied to the thread During the time of Epicurus, who could read well enough to study philosophy?.PostI found this Medium article interesting, too: https://medium.com/thought-thinke…ce-4301dccc3990
Excerpts:
We learn about the specific of reading practices in ancient Greece mostly not from written evidences which would describe the process of reading, but… -
Max DuBoff
July 8, 2026 at 6:13 PM Replied to the thread Welcome Max Duboff.PostAhh, good, yes. Your interpretation is certainly a plausible one. But Torquatus's argument in 1.37, as I understand it, is trying to show that katastematic pleasure is a pleasure. He uses that general principle to make this conclusion. We rejoice at… -
Don
July 8, 2026 at 5:27 PM Replied to the thread During the time of Epicurus, who could read well enough to study philosophy?.Post[…]
Wasn't one of Cicero's criticisms of Epicureans that they attracted women, slaves, and the common people? That's the same criticism levied against the early Christians.
One could study the philosophy without being able to read. Attending lectures,… -
Bryan
July 8, 2026 at 3:48 PM Replied to the thread During the time of Epicurus, who could read well enough to study philosophy?.PostLet me throw this quote in:
"However, with the study of grammar being twofold [1] the one promising to teach the elements and their combinations and being in general an art of writing and reading, and [2] the other being, in comparison, a deeper ability:… -
Pacatus
July 8, 2026 at 2:51 PM Replied to the thread During the time of Epicurus, who could read well enough to study philosophy?.Post[…]
Leontien and Themista also, according to accounts. -
Cassius
July 8, 2026 at 10:04 AM Replied to the thread Welcome Max Duboff.Post[…]
Max, as you might expect, I will say that there's no conflict between these statemens of Torquatus at all.
Here's Torquatus in 1.37 (Reid translation): "we look upon the greatest pleasure as that which is enjoyed when all pain is removed. Now inasmuch… -
Kalosyni
July 8, 2026 at 9:49 AM Replied to the thread During the time of Epicurus, who could read well enough to study philosophy?.PostThanks Don and thinking further...it appears that you may be hinting that we can't be totally certain about who exactly was attending Epicurus' Kepos, and what types of people attended the Epicurean communities. And yet, I don't think that it would be… -
Kalosyni
PostJuly 8, 2026 at 9:31 AM The original question: What Would Epicurus Say To Someone Who Said To Him That The Value of Being Dead and Being Alive Are Equal?
Let us suppost that there is a person who is in daily bodily pain, and who is having difficulty in managing that pain, then… -
Max DuBoff
July 8, 2026 at 8:44 AM Replied to the thread Welcome Max Duboff.PostThanks for these points, Don and Cassius! Cassius, to be clear, I really was not saying Epicurus is (or was ever understood to be) a value dualist. I was providing a friendly amendment to his view. On Moral Ends 2.9 is a very interesting passage, about… -
Cassius
July 8, 2026 at 7:28 AM Replied to the thread Welcome Max Duboff.PostI agree with Don's post, and in addition specifically on the issue of whether Epicurus was understood in the ancient world to be a "value dualist," I would cite what I see as a very clear refutation of any idea that "absence of pain" is something… -
Don
July 8, 2026 at 7:03 AM Replied to the thread During the time of Epicurus, who could read well enough to study philosophy?.PostBook 28 of On Nature ends with:
[…]
He uses the word ἀκρόασις "hearing, hearkening or listening to" where "lecture series" is the translation even though its a written work. The work is also written partially as a dialogue between Metrodorus and… -
Don
July 8, 2026 at 12:00 AM Replied to the thread Welcome Max Duboff.Post[…]
I always appreciate it when references to specific texts are given. It provides assurance that we're all looking at the same thing, although interpretation/translations sometimes/often differ.
In your assertion that "the evidence that Epicurus believed… -
Raphael Raul
July 7, 2026 at 10:36 PM Replied to the thread Episode 156 - Lucretius Today Interviews Dr. Emily Austin - Part One.PostCassius, when I lived in Paris in the 1980s studying at L'Académie des Beaux, I went to Rome many times and had the opportunity to dig at the Roman Forum with an archaeological expedition through the American Academy in Rome. These and many other… -
Patrikios
PostJuly 7, 2026 at 9:06 PM […]
Raphael Raul ,
This is an interesting thread, to which I’ll post other replies. However, to this opening sentence, I would tell someone today, that I have heard this same refrain of similar “burdens” on married life for decades. It was true in… -
Patrikios
PostJuly 7, 2026 at 8:29 PM […]
Cassius
I will have to agree with DaveT that I don’t see the value in this topic, from an Epicurean point of view. Life is worth living, and death is nothing to us . Something that is “nothing” to us has no value; therefore it can’t be… -
Kalosyni
July 7, 2026 at 7:01 PM Replied to the thread During the time of Epicurus, who could read well enough to study philosophy?.PostI found this with Google:
[…] -
Don
July 7, 2026 at 6:42 PM Replied to the thread Welcome Max Duboff.Post -
Don
July 7, 2026 at 5:43 PM Replied to the thread During the time of Epicurus, who could read well enough to study philosophy?.PostAll you really needed was one literate person in a given Epicurean community to read any correspondence or texts. My understanding is that it was common to listen to texts. This is what I understand happened in early Christian communities.
Ancient Greece… -
Bryan
July 7, 2026 at 5:42 PM Replied to the thread PD24 - Commentary and Translation of PD 24.PostHello Patrikios,
Thank you for the question. Yes, we are accustomed to the list of (1) sensations, (2) feelings/experiences, and (3a) anticipations, but KD 24 gives us instead (1) sensations, (2) feelings/experiences and (3b) whole appearance-based… -
Max DuBoff
July 7, 2026 at 5:03 PM Replied to the thread Welcome Max Duboff.Post[…]
As I said above, "I think the evidence that Epicurus believed a complete life can't get any better is clear; I don't know how else to interpret KD 3, 18, and 20-21, and Men. 128 and 131." To reiterate, I think there's strong evidence that Epicurus… -
Max DuBoff
July 7, 2026 at 5:01 PM Has received the trophy Frequent Posters.TrophyRecognition of Members Who Have Contributed More Than Thirty Posts On The Forum -
Max DuBoff
July 7, 2026 at 4:55 PM Replied to the thread Welcome Max Duboff.PostThanks, Cassius--great points. I don't think the textual evidence supports the G&T/ Nikolsky interpretation, but I grant that your arguments are quite plausible if they're right.
Pleasure and pain are mutually exclusive at the same time and in the same…
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