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Cassius
May 18, 2026 at 10:47 AM Replied to the thread Was Epicurus a Psychological Hedonist, an Ethical Hedonist, Both, or Neither?.PostGlancing over the thread I don't see that we have previously quoted this from Emily Austin's Chapter 4, where she favors Woolf's position but says this in footnote 6:
[…]
I am sure there are lots of ways to interpret this but one of them is that even Dr.… -
Cassius
May 18, 2026 at 10:35 AM Replied to the thread Was Epicurus a Psychological Hedonist, an Ethical Hedonist, Both, or Neither?.PostIt's showing up on our front page as most active because we are posting to the threads, so anyone coming to the forum just casually looking up "Epicurus," if they scroll down to the list of active topics these are at the top due to our posting.
It's a… -
Don
May 18, 2026 at 9:57 AM Replied to the thread Was Epicurus a Psychological Hedonist, an Ethical Hedonist, Both, or Neither?.Post[…]
Hmmm ... Is the reason it's active just us, or is it active because it's showing up in Google searches and leading people to the forum. I don't think I have an issue with people seeing the sausage making process of it leads to the forum. But that's… -
Don
May 18, 2026 at 9:30 AM Replied to the thread Was Epicurus a Psychological Hedonist, an Ethical Hedonist, Both, or Neither?.Post[…]
No argument. I don't want to rehash the categories of hedonism BUT I do think it's important to get straight what Epicurus is saying. -
Cassius
May 18, 2026 at 9:26 AM Replied to the thread Was Epicurus a Psychological Hedonist, an Ethical Hedonist, Both, or Neither?.PostHa - As it is now, this thread, and a related thread on PD25 , come up as two of the most active threads for the last YEAR. That is not a good thing -- this is very academic stuff and not helpful to our generalist readers, but the activity among those… -
Cassius
May 18, 2026 at 9:18 AM Replied to the thread Was Epicurus a Psychological Hedonist, an Ethical Hedonist, Both, or Neither?.Post[…]
I think both are true, and that is the real problem with forcing him into one or the other boxes of psychological or ethical humanism. The entire labeling scheme forces a choice between two positions that are both essentially true. Nature does prompt… -
Don
May 18, 2026 at 8:41 AM Replied to the thread Was Epicurus a Psychological Hedonist, an Ethical Hedonist, Both, or Neither?.PostI also need to say explicitly that I'm NOT suggesting Pleasure is some kind of Platonic Ideal "out there" somewhere. Maybe a better way to state the law of nature that Epicurus "discovered" is that "All living beings pursue pleasure and flee from pain."… -
Don
May 18, 2026 at 7:59 AM Replied to the thread Was Epicurus a Psychological Hedonist, an Ethical Hedonist, Both, or Neither?.PostThis is the pertinent section of the Menoikeus from my own translation. I don't have time right now to dig into it, but this is definitely a significant text from which I'm getting my interpretation of the Pleasure is the Telos:
Furthermore, on the one… -
Don
May 18, 2026 at 7:27 AM Replied to the thread Was Epicurus a Psychological Hedonist, an Ethical Hedonist, Both, or Neither?.Post[…]
I agree, but this doesn't address the question that has arisen from this thread:
Does "Pleasure is the End (insert whatever word you want here: telos, summum bonum, goal, The Good/ταγαθον/tagathon, etc) mean Epicurus stated a law of nature and… -
Cassius
May 18, 2026 at 5:19 AM Posted the thread Sidgwickianism - Henry Sidgwick and Utilitarian Analysis vs. Epicurus.ThreadSince the terms psychological hedonism and ethical hedonism are of great interest to some, and those terms appear to originate with Henry Sidgwick, it's probably helpful to have a thread on who Sidgwick was and what he was doing with his categories, and… -
Cassius
May 18, 2026 at 5:09 AM Replied to the thread Was Epicurus a Psychological Hedonist, an Ethical Hedonist, Both, or Neither?.PostThanks Todd. That last post as to competing definitions crystallizes why I see no benefit, and much harm, in talking too much about "psychological hedonism" or "ethical hedonism" or even "hedonism."
These terms are boxes that modern writers are using to… -
Martin
May 18, 2026 at 1:47 AM Replied to the thread Welcome RoseQuartzAxolotl!.PostWelcome RoseQuartzAxolotl! -
Todd
May 17, 2026 at 10:01 PM Replied to the thread Was Epicurus a Psychological Hedonist, an Ethical Hedonist, Both, or Neither?.PostThe major problem I see with Waggle is his definition of psychological hedonism.
He gives this definition:
[…]
Very well. That's the standard definition.
But when he gets down to specifics, it becomes apparent that he really means:
"...a descriptive theory… -
Don
May 17, 2026 at 9:36 PM Replied to the thread Was Epicurus a Psychological Hedonist, an Ethical Hedonist, Both, or Neither?.PostI'm not convinced by Waggle's paper. I'm posting excerpts from his paper below in italics.
For example...
If our nature predisposes us to seek pleasure and avoid pain, we start from a predisposition describable as psychological hedonism.
Correct, and I read… -
Cassius
May 17, 2026 at 8:37 PM Replied to the thread Was Epicurus a Psychological Hedonist, an Ethical Hedonist, Both, or Neither?.Post -
wbernys
May 17, 2026 at 7:54 PM Replied to the thread Welcome RoseQuartzAxolotl!.PostHappy to have you here RoseQuartzAxolotl ! -
TauPhi
May 17, 2026 at 6:23 PM Replied to the thread Was Epicurus a Psychological Hedonist, an Ethical Hedonist, Both, or Neither?.Post[…]
Telos is not for you to choose Cassius . It's the ultimate goal for living creatures set by Nature. Telos for living creatures is pleasure. Human rationality can change it as much as I can rationally decide I can jump 10 feet high. I can't. It… -
Don
May 17, 2026 at 6:16 PM Replied to the thread Was Epicurus a Psychological Hedonist, an Ethical Hedonist, Both, or Neither?.Post[…]
Sure, everyone can choose their course in life, what path they take.
But if we're talking about the goal/telos/summum bonum, no. That's baked into existence. The whole deal with that is what is the ultimate end, in the case of Epicurus' philosophy,… -
Todd
May 17, 2026 at 5:46 PM Replied to the thread Was Epicurus a Psychological Hedonist, an Ethical Hedonist, Both, or Neither?.PostOk...just one more thing that maybe will make sense.
What would you say if I told you my ultimate end was doing laundry?
Would you say, well, you have free will...so that is your choice.
Or would you rather say, I don't think you understand what an ultimate… -
Todd
May 17, 2026 at 5:34 PM Replied to the thread Was Epicurus a Psychological Hedonist, an Ethical Hedonist, Both, or Neither?.Post[…]
No, not saying anything like that.
[…]
I am not trying to put any limits on concrete choices, beyond what nature herself imposes.
But I do think there are logical constraints on what can be considered an ultimate end.
I won't try to push this any further… -
Cassius
May 17, 2026 at 5:22 PM Replied to the thread Was Epicurus a Psychological Hedonist, an Ethical Hedonist, Both, or Neither?.Post[…]
Pretty obviously we are going in circles so I will think for a while before replying further. But as far as I am concerned I can choose as my ultimate end virtue, or piety, or pleasure, or absence of pain viewed as nothingness as some people argue,… -
Todd
May 17, 2026 at 5:07 PM Replied to the thread Was Epicurus a Psychological Hedonist, an Ethical Hedonist, Both, or Neither?.Post[…]
It's not that it is unchoosable, it's that it is self-contradictory.
If you have a reason for choosing something as an ultimate end, then you are implying that *the reason* is actually a higher end. So you have definitely chosen an end, but by your… -
Cassius
May 17, 2026 at 5:01 PM Replied to the thread Was Epicurus a Psychological Hedonist, an Ethical Hedonist, Both, or Neither?.Post[…]
Why? What about an ultimate end makes it unchoosable using reason in making the choice? -
Todd
May 17, 2026 at 4:57 PM Replied to the thread Was Epicurus a Psychological Hedonist, an Ethical Hedonist, Both, or Neither?.Post[…]
I don't feel like it is.
Yes, we can choose. We can choose pain.
For the sake of argument, I am conceding that we can choose ultimate ends.
My key points are:
1) If you are really choosing an ultimate end, you cannot use any rational/logical criteria in… -
RoseQuartzAxolotl
May 17, 2026 at 4:56 PM Replied to the thread Welcome RoseQuartzAxolotl!.PostThank you Cassius, I am glad to be here. -
Cassius
May 17, 2026 at 4:53 PM Replied to the thread Welcome RoseQuartzAxolotl!.PostThat's a great opening email. You are very welcome here! -
Cassius
May 17, 2026 at 4:53 PM Replied to the thread Welcome RoseQuartzAxolotl!.PostRoseQuartzAxolotl (that's quite a user name!) tells us this:
Hello Cassius and all!
I'm 34 and I live in the Chicagoland area with my husband and our Shetland Sheepdog. I work on the systems side of education.
I grew up fairly conservative and fundamental… -
Cassius
May 17, 2026 at 4:51 PM Posted the thread Welcome RoseQuartzAxolotl!.ThreadWelcome RoseQuartzAxolotl
There is one last step to complete your registration:
All new registrants must post a response to this message here in this welcome thread (we do this in order to minimize spam registrations).
You must post your response within… -
Cassius
May 17, 2026 at 4:48 PM Replied to the thread Was Epicurus a Psychological Hedonist, an Ethical Hedonist, Both, or Neither?.PostWell either in English or in Greek, we still choose our own utlimate course in life, do we not? I certainly understand that nature gives us the feelings of pleasure and pain, but it is exactly the fact that we can at any particular moment in life choose… -
Todd
May 17, 2026 at 4:34 PM Replied to the thread Was Epicurus a Psychological Hedonist, an Ethical Hedonist, Both, or Neither?.Post[…]
I mean the telos. -
Cassius
May 17, 2026 at 4:30 PM Replied to the thread Was Epicurus a Psychological Hedonist, an Ethical Hedonist, Both, or Neither?.Post[…]
Yes, this is the step I clearly don't understand. Don can you help me? Presumably there is something about the word "ultimate" I am not following. -
Todd
May 17, 2026 at 4:17 PM Replied to the thread Was Epicurus a Psychological Hedonist, an Ethical Hedonist, Both, or Neither?.Post[…]
I am not denying free will. I don't think free will has anything to do with my argument.
It might be relevant to note that free will doesn't mean you can choose anything. Nature has set limits.
[…]
I am not saying you can't choose. I'm saying you can't… -
Cassius
May 17, 2026 at 3:53 PM Replied to the thread Was Epicurus a Psychological Hedonist, an Ethical Hedonist, Both, or Neither?.Post[…]
I gather this is the heart of your argument, and I am going to have to think about it because I don't follow it as written.
1. it's a bedrock principal of Epicurus that we have free will, so all sorts of arguments can be used to persuade people of… -
Todd
May 17, 2026 at 2:49 PM Replied to the thread Was Epicurus a Psychological Hedonist, an Ethical Hedonist, Both, or Neither?.Posthttps://www.epicureanfriends.com/wcf/faq-questi…oth-or-neither/
Several (all?) of the pro-ethical hedonism sources there seem to suggest that psychological hedonism would make philosophy unnecessary. Or at least it would make ethics unnecessary, which to… -
Raphael Raul
May 17, 2026 at 12:23 PM Replied to a comment by TauPhi on the image The Nature of Existence is Atoms and Void..Reply (Image/Video)Thank you, Tau Phi, for the information on the quantity of Epicurean writings we have: it amounts to only 1-2%, or about 10,000 words. In comparison, of the 38 plays that Shakepears wrote, it would be like only having half of "A Midsummer Night's Dream",… -
Cassius
May 17, 2026 at 12:20 PM Replied to the thread Episode 334 - Not Yet Rcorded.PostI cross-posted with Bryan and just now see his #12
[…]
This sentence covers a lot but I would think it would be true thaL
"judgment is ESTABLISHED in the senses" means more like "judgment is validated by or is tested against the perceptions of the senses ,… -
Cassius
May 17, 2026 at 11:32 AM Replied to the thread Episode 334 - Not Yet Rcorded.PostOk we just finished recording and I am not sure that we hit your precise point Patrikios but I think you will be pleased with this episode and we can come back to that next week. The section we are in is very deep and what you are raising is definitely… -
Bryan
May 17, 2026 at 11:32 AM Replied to the thread Episode 334 - Not Yet Rcorded.PostWe can review Zeno of Citium's "Analogy of the Closing Hand" for contrast (from Academica 2.145):
1. An open hand represents φαντασία (an appearance)
2. Partially closed fingers represent συγκατάθεσις (assent that the appearance is true)
3. A closed fist… -
Cassius
May 17, 2026 at 11:31 AM Replied to the thread Was Epicurus a Psychological Hedonist, an Ethical Hedonist, Both, or Neither?.Post[…]
I suspect we don't disagree that much at all, and that much of the issue is the potential of unstated presumptions lurking beneath the surface that both you and I would reject but that we have not fully fleshed out at this point. -
Patrikios
May 17, 2026 at 11:06 AM Replied to the thread Episode 334 - Not Yet Rcorded.Post[…]
Cassius ,
I was trying to better understand the difference between katalepsis and prolepsis. I recall reading this paper from David Glidden on Epicurean Prolepsis. Glidden researches Diogenes Laertius and Cicero, when he explains this aspect.
[…]
… -
Todd
May 17, 2026 at 10:58 AM Replied to the thread Was Epicurus a Psychological Hedonist, an Ethical Hedonist, Both, or Neither?.Post[…]
Do you think psychological hedonism is incompatible with agency/free will? The only people I have seen making this claim are arguing *against* psychological hedonism. It seems like a straw man.
I will qualify my position slightly. I don't believe it… -
Don
May 17, 2026 at 10:20 AM Replied to the thread Was Epicurus a Psychological Hedonist, an Ethical Hedonist, Both, or Neither?.Post[…]
That quote of mine out of context doesn't really convey what I said.
He is not saying we ought to follow pleasure. To my mind, he's saying we do. Living beings do. What he is doing is calling us to do this deliberately, to understand how to do what… -
Cassius
May 17, 2026 at 8:56 AM Replied to the thread Was Epicurus a Psychological Hedonist, an Ethical Hedonist, Both, or Neither?.Post[…]
Ok we are at least temporily on different sides of that phrasing. I think he is saying that because nature does tell us to follow pleasure, we should follow pleasure if we want to be happy. Other people can choose other gioals and other paths but… -
Don
May 17, 2026 at 8:11 AM Replied to the thread Was Epicurus a Psychological Hedonist, an Ethical Hedonist, Both, or Neither?.PostI'm rethinking that, I don't see an is/ought problem here.
Living beings pursue pleasure and avoid pain.
Epicurus does, to my perspective, state this as an observation of the way things are. A fact of nature.
He is not saying we ought to follow pleasure. To… -
Cassius
May 17, 2026 at 7:54 AM Replied to the thread Episode 334 - Not Yet Rcorded.PostSo it seems I've been repeating the Epicurean formulation " all sensations are true " for many years without fully appreciating that some people (the Stoics) say that some sensations are true and others are false.
I think I've tended to flip back and… -
Cassius
May 17, 2026 at 7:49 AM Replied to the thread Episode 334 - Not Yet Rcorded.PostI can't find a good authoritative page I can screen clip but at the hazard of it being wrong here is chatgpt:
VII.46 is where Diogenes is summarizing Stoic epistemology. The Greek wording varies slightly by edition, but the key line containing katalepsis… -
Cassius
May 17, 2026 at 7:37 AM Replied to the thread Episode 334 - Not Yet Rcorded.PostHere's the Perseus link from which we can look for variations of katalepsis:
https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?do….perseus-grc1:7 -
Cassius
May 17, 2026 at 7:30 AM Replied to the thread Episode 334 - Not Yet Rcorded.PostApparently katalepsis is in here somewhere:
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Lives_of_…ers/Book_VII#45
45. The study of syllogisms they declare to be of the greatest service, as showing us what is capable of yielding demonstration; and this contributes much… -
Cassius
May 17, 2026 at 7:27 AM Replied to the thread Was Epicurus a Psychological Hedonist, an Ethical Hedonist, Both, or Neither?.Post[…]
Yes I need to as well. I am concerned that what we are going to find is that certain people reach conclusions from this debate that you and I would consider absurd, and therefore we don't imagine that it's necessary to kick back against.
There's only… -
Cassius
May 17, 2026 at 7:23 AM Replied to the thread Episode 334 - Not Yet Rcorded.PostThanks Don. By the time of DL he'd have been inundated by the Stoic v Skeptic debate and surely would have compared Stoic vs Epicurean views on prolepsis. "A sort of" presumably indicates parallels but not exactly the same (?)
I want to go looking for…
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