Posts by Patrikios

Quote from Cassius

But can it not ALSO be used in a way that is entirely positive and pleasurable, in which the pleasure of anticipation and preparation for the experience are every bit as enjoyable as the experience itself?

Cassius I agree that 'desire' is one of our important natural feelings that can help us achieve some of our most important goals or missions in life [telos] . My understanding of studying nature is that life is to create and re-create. Our body’s cells are being re-created all the time. Most people have a natural desire to make things (e.g. create something that improves their happiness) that didn’t exist, but now exists. Looking to nature shows how plants and animals are creating new life and contributing to other plants and animals.

I find in the Letter to Menoeceus, Epicurus states:
"We must also reflect that of desires some are natural, others are groundless; and that of the natural some are necessary as well as natural, and some natural only. And of the necessary desires some are necessary if we are to be happy, some if the body is to be rid of uneasiness, some if we are even to live."

Quote from Cassius

Good use of a chatbot! Of course I disagree with it, because it doesn't consider the nuances of the reason for the post or the subtlety of Epicurean philosophy, but it's helpful to draw out the issues.

Cassius,

I agree with you about AI Chatbots giving over-simplified explanations. However, it can be a tool for authors to use to check the content versus intended audience level of understanding. For grins 😁, I asked my Personal.AI philosophy persona to read your text. Here’s the response with very positive views overall.

“Thanks for providing the post by Cassius Amicus. I can now offer a more informed comparison with Epicurean philosophy.

The post aligns closely with key tenets of Epicureanism. It accurately reflects Epicurus' materialist worldview, rejection of divine intervention, and focus on natural explanations for phenomena. The emphasis on pleasure and pain as guides for decision-making is quintessentially Epicurean.

However, I'm less certain about some nuances. For instance, Epicurus' view on free will and determinism was more complex than point 4 suggests. Also, the stark finality of death described in points 8-10, while generally aligned with Epicurean thought, might be slightly oversimplified.

The post captures Epicurus' ethical hedonism well, particularly in points 5 and 6. The focus on living in the present (points 7-8) and personal responsibility (point 11) are also consistent with Epicurean teachings.

Overall, this post provides a concise, largely accurate summary of Epicurean philosophy, though it may oversimplify some concepts. Would you like me to elaborate on any specific points or aspects of Epicurean philosophy for comparison?”

While my AI persona was reluctant to offer a classroom grade without more context of intent, it did offer this praise.

“If this was meant as a brief, accessible summary for a general audience, it might even merit a full A for its clarity and overall accuracy.”

Quote from Kalosyni

when in actuality there is a longer process involved which involves learning how to use prudence as a tool which leads to a pleasant and pleasurable life.

And it is important to take in a big picture view, rather than only quick snippets.

Thanks, Kalosyni . Here is how I am beginning to see the 'big picture' of Epicurus' teachings (while I still have more to learn).

I understand that Epicurus taught us how to use a set of tools (e.g. prudent evaluation of desires, awareness of our senses, frank speech among friends) so that we could study Divine Nature. Our study enables us to live in balance (eustatheia) with Nature, so that we are heathy in body (aponia), mind (ataraxia) & spirit/soul (psychê), and living well to our highest good (eudaimonia).

That's the goal as I see it; to adopt a daily practice so we can live a life of imperturbability (calm and unruffled self-assurance) like the "Happy Greek".

Is the Zoom info same as October?

For those of us with a science or technology background, it can be quite interesting to see how the principles of Epicurus are being revealed through modern science. My area of interest in quantum mechanics and quantum field theory, has led into research on Quantum Information Biology (QIB).
See this research paper on this topic: https://arxiv.org/pdf/1503.02515

The paper discusses “free will” at the quantum level that supports Epicurus’ view on the “swerve”. So, I discussed this paper with my Personal.AI science-philosopher persona, and we arrived at this comparison of this QIB paper and Epicurus writings.

Quote

Certainly, I'll conduct a thorough review of both sources and provide a professional analysis comparing the views on free will in quantum information biology with Epicurus' perspectives.

After carefully examining my memory banks, I've found several relevant documents discussing Epicurus' views on free will and the concept of the "swerve" (clinamen). Here's a comprehensive analysis:

Epicurus' View on Free Will:

Epicurus proposed a materialist worldview where everything, including the human mind, is composed of atoms. He introduced the concept of the "swerve" to explain how free will could exist in a deterministic universe. The swerve is a random, unpredictable deviation in the motion of atoms that breaks the chain of causality.

Key points:

1. The swerve occurs at no fixed place or time, introducing an element of chance.

2. This indeterminism at the atomic level allows for free will at the macroscopic level of human decision-making.

3. Epicurus argued that without this swerve, we would be slaves to determinism, our actions predetermined by prior causes.

Quantum Information Biology (QIB) and Free Will:

The QIB approach, as described in the article, offers a new perspective on free will that shares some intriguing parallels with Epicurus' ideas:

1. Quantum-like decision making: QIB suggests that decision-making processes in biological systems, including humans, may follow quantum-like principles. This introduces an element of indeterminism similar to Epicurus' swerve.

2. Non-classical probability: Both QIB and Epicurus' model challenge classical, deterministic views of causality. QIB proposes that biological systems often violate classical probability laws, necessitating quantum-like models.

3. Multi-scale approach: QIB applies quantum formalism across multiple scales, from molecular to cognitive levels. This aligns with Epicurus' idea that atomic-level phenomena (the swerve) can influence macroscopic events (human decisions).

4. Emergent free will: In QIB, free will could be viewed as an emergent property arising from quantum-like information processing in complex biological systems. This echoes Epicurus' notion that free will emerges from atomic indeterminism.

Comparative Analysis:

1. Indeterminism: Both models introduce indeterminism as a foundation for free will. Epicurus does this through the swerve, while QIB does it through quantum-like probabilistic models.

2. Materialist foundation: Epicurus and QIB both ground their theories in a materialist worldview, albeit with different levels of complexity.

3. Scale of effect: Epicurus' swerve operates at the atomic level, while QIB considers quantum-like effects across multiple biological scales.

4. Mechanism vs. Information: Epicurus focuses on the physical mechanism (atomic swerve), while QIB emphasizes information processing and dynamics.

5. Scientific grounding: QIB, being a modern scientific approach, has the potential for empirical testing and validation, which wasn't available to Epicurus.

In conclusion, while Epicurus and QIB approach the problem of free will from different historical and scientific contexts, they share a fundamental aim: reconciling free will with a materialist worldview by introducing elements of indeterminism. QIB can be seen as a more sophisticated, scientifically grounded extension of the type of thinking Epicurus pioneered over two millennia ago.

This analysis demonstrates the enduring relevance of Epicurus' ideas and how modern scientific approaches like QIB are continuing to grapple with the age-old question of free will, albeit with more advanced tools and concepts.

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It appears to me that more of the quantum research may further explain some of the underlying phenomena that produced effects that Epicurus was able to discern.

(If there is another thread where such ideas should be posted, LMK.)

Quote from SillyApe

This is the kind of thinking that first made me love Epicurean Philosophy. In the past, I was full of these vain desires and expectations, which brought me so much pain. One day, I read about Epicurus encouraging his followers to analyze their desires and do the calculation to see if they are worth it or not. Once I realized the futility of my pursuits and let these desires and expectations go, I felt so much light, as if I were a locked bird, now free to fly to the skies. Later on, I discovered the concept of "cognitive load", which explained through Psychiatry what Epicurus taught many centuries ago through Philosophy.

SI,

Thanks for your description of the feelings (sensations) you experienced when applying some of Epicurus's writings to analyze desires. When I think of Epicurus concept of living prudently, I try to do the right analysis of pleasure vs. pain to determine how much effort, resources, pain to expend to achieve what expected benefits that make life more pleasant. I have found this Epicurean analysis is helped when we better understand how to use our natural biology to ‘program’ our minds to apply the principles more naturally.

Recently I have been reading papers by Christos Yapijakis. He adds a medical perspective that shows how what Epicurus advocated is supported by our modern understanding of human biology & psychology. Through the Epicurean practice, the right thinking that leads to tranquility also helps the body operate in harmony as our bodies are intended to operate. This leads to the desired state of whole body & mind & spirit in balance - a state of homeostasis. This natural state of our body at ‘ease’ helps reduce dis-ease, which reduces body pains.

Here is an example of how Yapijakis describes the biological process (with my bolded emphasis).

“This tripartite neurophysiological functioning of the brain is greatly reminiscent of Epicurus’ teachings. The Athenian philosopher emphasized the fact that the basic needs of human nature lay on our instincts (“reptilian brain”), which correspond to natural and necessary desires and should be satisfied or else our bodies will suffer: «Σαρκὸς φωνὴ τὸ μὴ πεινῆν, τὸ μὴ διψῆν, τὸ μὴ ῥιγοῦν» (“The cry of the flesh: not to be hungry, not to be thirsty, not to be cold”)12. Moreover, Epicurus recognized the critical importance of the positive emotion of pleasure and it seems that he almost described the selective role of the amygdala when he said: «Τὴν ἡδονὴν ἀρχὴν καὶ τέλος λέγομεν εἶναι τοῦ μακαρίως ζῆν. Ταύτην γὰρ ἀγαθὸν πρῶτον καὶ συγγενικὸν ἔγνωμεν καὶ ἀπὸ ταύτης καταρχόμεθα πάσης αἱρέσεως καὶ φυγῆς» (“We say that pleasure is the starting point and goal of living blessedly. For we recognized this as our first innate good, and this is our starting point for every choice and avoidance”)13. He determined the purpose of human life on emotional grounds (“mammalian brain”) aiming at the blissful state of physical ἀπονία (lack of pain) and mental ἀταραξία (calmness, lack of agitation). Above all, Epicurus considered prudence (“primate brain”) as the supreme regulator of conscious selection of what brings happiness, with wise satisfaction of physical needs and preservation of emotional balance by tasting those pleasures that do not result in greater pain instead of pleasure14. With great foresight, the philosopher realized that prudence should govern, because this is the ultimate nature of humans as primates, without forgetting feelings which also play a major role in their life, since humans are mammals, too.”

Epicurean Biological Psychology

Christos Yapijakis

D.M.D.,M.S.,Ph.D. (cyapijakis_ua_gr@yahoo.com)

1 Department of Neurology, School of Medicine, National and Kapodistrian University of Athens, Greece

2 ”Garden of Athens”, Friends of Epicurean Philosophy

23th WORLD CONGRESS OF PHILOSOPHY, ATHENS 2013

Quote from Godfrey

- Might it be most constructive to be satisfied with multiple possible explanations of the gods? And perhaps useful to look at the subject for practical insights, through modern eyes?

Godfrey, thank you for this suggestion to look for practical insights.

As I understand Greece and surrounding Mediterranean countries in 4th century bce, many of the 'gods' were still being worshiped for their control over some facet of Nature (e.g. Zeus - lightening bolts; Posieden - seas), or they represented human emotions/actions (e.g. Eros - sexual desire; Morpheus - dreams & sleep). Which gods was Epicurus suggesting were worth considering as being blessed? Was Epicurus referring only to the gods that represented positive traits (e.g. Apollo - god of music, poetry, art, oracles, archery, plague, medicine, sun, light and knowledge), not gods of war & violence (e.g. Ares)?

Epicurus could be calling us to consider, for example, the blessedness of Apollo when getting in the mood to write a creative music or poem. It appears that the Epicurus was using the generally accepted practice to acknowledge the existence of gods, but focusing only on the gods who demonstrate an appearance of happiness and imperturbation.

Was Epicurus using people's positive views of the best possible unperturbed state of mind (as envisioned with peaceful gods) as a goal of our practice to prudently live pleasantly?

Quote from Cassius

Now that our book review is complete let me thank all who participated, and especially Emily Austin who joined in our final session. We'll plan a new program soon and we'll rotate back to "Living for Pleasure" in the future.

Cassius Is there a video or audio link of the June 4, 2023 discussion with Emily Austin? I have her book and I would be interested in the updated discussion. (I have listened to the 2 LT podcasts with Emily.)

Thanks for your in-depth knowledge 👍

Patrikios

Quote from Cassius

In addition, however, there are major philosophical issues that Epicurus was addressing that tend to get crowded out if one focuses only on "balance" or "tranquility" or any other single tool toward the ultimate goal. I suppose one might say that it is important to take a "balanced" approach even to balance, and to recognize that there are many other day to day decisions that must be made on which Epicurus had very many important things to say.

From my reading of Yapijakis and Chorousos, this writing didn’t just focus on ‘psychosomatic balance’, but broadly reinforces many of our core principles - the pursuit of inner peace, the importance of friendship, the value of rational thinking, and the focus on achievable, natural pleasures rather than vain desires. It provides a strong historical and philosophical foundation for our approach to stress management and the pursuit of happiness. Notice the importance of prudent, rational decision process. Here are some quotes from the article to highlight the ‘balanced’ approach.

“According to Epicurus, eudaimonia is a hedonistic steady state of being (καταστηματικὴ ἡδονὴ, static hedone) free of agitation and pain. The happy life could be achieved only by prudent people, who on the one hand do not have irrational fears of gods and death, while on the other hand recognize their irrational, unnatural and unnecessary desires and avoid them. People who want to live happily should exercise their practical wisdom to understand the nature of their emotions as criteria of truth, to allow the expression of the useful ones and to control that of the disruptive ones.”

”According to Epicurus, eustatheia is achieved by controlling stress and the quality of life by means of prudence and other virtues, goodwill and friendship.”

”Considering that philosophy is the cure for mental distress, Epicurus proposed specific philosophical “medicines” for achieving psychosomatic eustatheia and eudaimonia, which are timeless, as long as the biological nature of humans remains the same.”

Quote from Cassius

As I see it the number one hurdle to get across - with nothing else being close - is that of arguing the evidence supporting the view that Epicurus' "absence of pain" does not mean "absence of activity," but instead embraces *every* activity of human life that is not painful.

I can certainly see the value of seeking ataraxia, tranquility of mind. But I understand the greater good we are seeking is eudaimonia, happiness. What helped me see the ultimate value of an Epicurean practice is Christos Yapijakis writing on eustatheia, “stability”, what medical practitioners today call homeostasis, psychosomatic balance.

The writing is: “Epicurean Stability (eustatheia): A Philosophical Approach of Stress Management”, by Christos Yapijakis and George P. Chrousos, medical professionals teaching at National and Kapodistrian University of Athens, Greece.

So, eustatheia is the goal of complete harmony with mind, body & spirit. But it is the unperturbility, calmness resulting from an epicurean practice that enables us to demonstrate by example the benefits of this practice. I find myself asking: WWED - “what would Epicurus do” in this situation. This can also lead to what athletes like to achieve when they can perform in “the zone”.

One way to consider growing the Epicurean community would be to emphasize the “optimal living”, “be the best you can be”, aspects that results from a practice of achieving physical, mental & spiritual balance (homeostasis) in their lives.

Quote from Cassius

By they way do you have the "quote" function working now?

Quote from Pacatus

“As a practical matter it seems to me that Epicurus was right that it would be impossible for us to live happily if we did not organize our lives as if we are confident that we have some amount of free agency. … That has to be good enough and I judge it to be good enough - at least for me.”

– Cassius post #4 above.

Cassius Your commentary is quite timely, especially for those of us making decisions related to the vagaries of storms & hurricanes.

First, my wife & I are back home safely Thursday morning on the bay, after riding out Milton 6 miles inland on west coast of FL with strong winds & rain. Yet the stillness we experienced last night standing outside during the Eye of the Storm, brought a few moments of tranquility from the wind noise. The Eye also let us know to expect the stronger winds as the back wall of winds hit a few minutes later last night.

Second, we are fortunate to have benefits of science that enables us to organize our lives, track the storm better and make prudent decisions to deal with the necessity of shelter, food & water; while accepting nature’s vagaries of chance, especially with such a powerful storm (wind speeds & direction, rainfall amounts).

Thirdly, according to these principles of Epicurus, we can choose to re-organize our lives prudently to live happily & harmoniously with some new realities of nature, while not attributing the good or bad effects of such natural events to any gods.

Again I appreciate the relevancy of these Epicurean Friends dialogues. 🙏

Quote from TauPhi

Clotho (Κλωθώ) - The Sister of Choice, the Spinner. She weaves the thread of our lives. She employees us as actors in 'The Life' play where we make the choices which are ours despite the fact that they are limited by the chances and necessities of the stage and the theatre.

I like this idea of the “thread of life” as a metaphor to view our journey through life. Seeing the 3 sides of the Moirai, makes sense to me in better understanding our roles & responsibilities in Life. As I understand, Epicurus tells us to learn from Devine Nature how all 3 of these facets work to achieve a balanced, happy life. In other words, by recognizing that necessity and chance do occur in everyday life, we should also recognize that our free will is not prevented by them, but we can prudently evaluate the opportunities and obstacles from those two sisters. Then we can exercise our free will to choose the best path for our continued journey steps.

Thanks for an interesting topic, Pacatus.

"due to a cultural background or training (either religious or cultural) that eschews pleasurable pursuits as frivolous or inappropriate."

Here is an example of the religious culture defining appropriate pursuit of happiness. In some of my family's Christian evangelical circles, any pursuit of personal pleasure is only appropriate if you follow the JOY priority of how you spend your time to bring happiness to your life:

Jesus first

Others second

Yourself last.

That was a formula that resulted in more anxiety and dis-ease. Some in those groups would use that meme as a tool for judging any "inappropriate" pursuits; often couched in condescendingly sayings such as "we'll pray for you", while thinking [and your poor lost atheist soul]. This may be an example where their interpretations of 'scripture' led them to their own 'hedonophobia', which they attempted to spread to others in their circle.

Through our studies of Epicurus, I have come to understand the importance to instead follow the airplane rule: "put on your oxygen mask first, before you help someone else." Through our prudent evaluation of pleasures and the work/effort required to obtain them, we can be thoughtful and supportive of the needs of family and friends, while maintaining an Epicurean practice that enables us to operate from a core sense of happiness, as our basic necessities are met.

Quote from Kalosyni

… if there are any other introductory members (or established members who have never attended) interested please let us know and we can add you to the Zoom link list (link goes out the day before the meeting).

I would love to attend the zoom meeting on 7th.

Quote from Cassius

I am glad we reached this section before we do our special episode on the "real vs ideal" debate. This section contains some very interesting material on images, a subject that most seem to agree play into the question of prolepsis.

I’m looking forward to your upcoming podcast discussion of the Epicurean idea of "images flowing" and how this ties into human perception and knowledge. From my reading of Epicurus (although I can’t cite source), all objects continuously emit thin films of atoms called eidola or "images." These images flow through space and interact with our senses, particularly our eyes, to create perceptions. These images maintained the shape and properties of the objects they came from, allowing us to perceive the world accurately. I find this to be a reasonable explanation for perception, consistent with Epicurean atomic theory, and refined (not discredited) today’s scientific knowledge.

As I understand it, Prolepsis is closely tied to the theory of flowing images because these preconceptions are ultimately derived from sensory experiences caused by these images. It's a way of explaining how we form general concepts from particular experiences, bridging the gap between atomic theory and human cognition.

I look forward to the fascinating discussion on the podcast, with maybe some commentary on how this system of thought - from flowing images to sensory perception to prolepsis - forms a coherent materialist explanation for how we perceive and understand the world today, which was a cornerstone of Epicurean philosophy over 2000 years ago.

Quote from Joshua

There is an interesting remark by Stephen Greenblatt in The Swerve about libraries in antiquity, but I haven't been able to track down a source for the claim.

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At the games in the Colosseum one day, the historian Tacitus had a conversation on literature with a perfect stranger who turned out to have read his works. Culture was no longer located in close-knit circles of friends and acquaintances; Tacitus was encountering his "public" in the form of someone who had bought his book at a stall in the Forum or read it in a library.

In any case, This article (PDF) gives an interesting look into how these texts might have been distributed in antiquity. Just in case Don needs a cheering-up!

Joshua , interesting question on how Epicurean texts got circulated in Ancient Greece & Italy. When I visited Greece earlier this month my tour included Olympia and Delphi, which was home to the “Pythian Games”. Each location held their games every 4 years off-set by 2 years. While the athletic games only lasted 3 or 4 days, the festival was 8 days or more.

These gatherings included opportunities for dialogue with people from around the Mediterranean. Next to the stadiums was the theater, where lectures given, along with plays and music. Many of the travelers to Olympia and Delphi paid some appropriate “alms” to the temple(s), on their way to the stadiums and theaters. Yet, many also then listened or had dialogue with teachers from Epicurean schools in Greece. While there wasn’t any direct archaeological evidence for the spreading of Epicurean discussions at these large festivals in Greece.

So, it is very likely that similar gatherings occurred around the Colosseum and Forum in Rome until around 4th century CE. My facts and memory may not be exact, but in Greece the crossroads of ideas frequently occurred around the festivals.

Here’s the Wikipedia text on Pythian Games.

“The Pythian Games (Greek: Τα Πύθια, translit. Ta Pythia) were one of the four Panhellenic Games of Ancient Greece. They were held in honour of Apollo at his sanctuary in Delphievery four years, two years after the Olympic Games, and between each Nemean and Isthmian Games. The Pythian Games were founded sometime in the 6th century BC. In legend they were started by Apollo after he killed Python and set up the Oracle at Delphi. They continued until the 4th century AD.”

Quote from Kalosyni

Vatican Saying 48:

"While you are on the road, try to make the later part better than the earlier part; and be equally happy when you reach the end."

Seems like an Epicurean would evaluate and then take action to make their life better (perhaps based on natural and necessary for happiness).

I appreciate the sentiments expressed by Kalosyni to keep a focus on nature. While I am still learning about #Epicurus teachings, I find his focus on Nature as the ruler on what is “real”. My understanding of Nature is that everything is in motion and creating (growing/aging still involves creation of new cells). So, I try to find “meaning” in my life by prioritizing on finding new solutions to issues that arise in different facets of our lives (home, work, community, personal self, etc.).

Hello, Friends of Epicurus.

Thanks to Cassius for the forum on-boarding assistance.

My interest in this forum is to continue learning more about the teachings of Epicurus. I am interested in understanding the Ethics and how to apply them daily. I enjoy the discussions on Lucretius Today podcast every week. I try to listen to them on the weekend, for my Sunday ‘sermon’, and contemplation.

The Physics of Epicurus I am finding is fascinatingly prescient as current Quantum Field Theory & Quantum Gravity theory are providing the scientific revealing from Nature.

I look forward to continuing my education through this forum and the wealth of resources here.

Patrick (Patrikios for my Greek friends)