Posts by Macario

Hello Don! Thanks for replying! To me, this discussion is not only pleasurable but also really valuable. As I said before, it seems to me that what Epicurus takes as autarkeia is a key requirement to achieve the state of ataraxia. Therefore, I believe it's crucial to understand the applied concept in order to understand better the Epicurean Ethics.

Quote from Don

My soapbox here on the forum is always go back to the original texts, and don't trust any one translation of any word that was originally in Greek or Latin.

I agree that this a much better approach when it comes to understand some concepts used in ancient texts. Thanks for organizing and listing the original fragments along with the original texts. Also, the links you provided are valuable research resources and I was not aware of them.

Quote from Don

The final selection from Aristotle definitely has an economic aspect; however, the excerpt from Plato has an aspect of contentment about it. So, it seems to have been a multi-purpose word.

I must agree that is hard, from the fragments of Aristotle and Plato to conclude a precise definition for the word. Regarding Epicurean fragments, from VS45 and Fragment 476 I find it also hard to extract a precise definition.

Now, regarding fragment 202, I must say it still seems to me that has an economic aspect. I am assuming the word 'wealth' (πλοῦτός) is used here meaning the amount of resources one has minus his necessities/desires, therefore, wealth would be the result of this equation.

This seems to be in accordance with the sentences used: "with regard to what is enough by nature, everything he owns is a source of wealth" and "whereas with regard to unlimited desires, even the greatest wealth is poverty." On the first one, if one's desires are limited by what is enough by nature (that being his natural and necessary desires), nature itself can provide what he needs, so everything he owns will increase the result of the equation, thus, being a source of wealth. On the second one, if one's desires/necessities are unlimited, the second term of the equation is infinite, then, no matter how great the first term is, the result (wealth) will always be negative.

On the other hand, in the beginning sentence of the fragment: "He who follows nature and not groundless opinions is completely self-reliant", the use of the word 'opinions' (δόξαις) rather than 'desires' (ἐπιθυμίας) confuses me and points again to the direction of contentment rather than economic self-sufficiency.

In addition, allow me to add to the list, some fragments that also refers to autarkeia and I think it is important to take them in account:

First, fragment 135a:

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We value self-reliance not so that we will live simply and cheaply in all things, but so that we will not be consumed by them.

ἐζηλώσαμεν τὴν αὐτάρκειαν οὐχ ὅπως τοῖς εὐτελέσι καὶ λιτοῖς παντῶς χρώμεθα, ἀλλʼ ὅπως θαρρῶμεν πρὸς αὐτά.

Then, on the note of VS77, Saint-Andre says "Self-reliance is discussed in greater depth at Letter to Menoikos, Section 130." From that section we get:

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We hold that self-reliance is a great good — not so that we will always have only a few things but so that if we do not have much we will rejoice in the few things we have, firmly persuaded that those who need luxury the least enjoy it the most, and that everything natural is easily obtained whereas everything groundless is hard to get.

καὶ τὴν αὐτάρκειαν δὲ ἀγαθὸν μέγα νομίζομεν, οὐχ ἵνα πάντως τοῖς ὀλίγοις χρώμεθα, ἀλλ’ ὅπως, ἐὰν μὴ ἔχωμεν τὰ πολλά, τοῖς ὀλίγοις ἀρκώμεθα, πεπεισμένοι γνησίως ὅτι ἥδιστα πολυτελείας ἀπολαύουσιν οἱ ἥκιστα ταύτης δεόμενοι, καὶ ὅτι τὸ μὲν φυσικὸν πᾶν εὐπόριστόν ἐστι, τὸ δὲ κενὸν δυσπόριστον

This last quote seems very important to me. I underlined the words 'natural' (φυσικὸν) and 'groundless' (κενὸν) because are the words that Epicurus uses to refer to "natural and necessary desires" and "not natural and unnecessary desires" respectively. While this, in my opinion, emphasizes the relation with economic self-sufficiency, the sentence "if we do not have much we will rejoice in the few things we have", seems to have a strong contentment connotation.

In the end, it seems to me that the aspects of contentment with what one have and the idea of economic self-sufficiency are both connected to the concept of autarkeia in Epicurus. Maybe not unrelated to one another, but the first one (contentment) making it easier - or may even be a requirement? - to reach the second one (economic self-sufficiency) and then, complete the concept of autarkeia. Although this conclusion is still not very clear to me.

Thank you Cassius! I found it. It was my mistake, I was looking for a way to privately message someone, looking at the user's profile rather than a general button. But then, looking again, I realized it's also possible to start a private conversation at the user's profile page. Turns out I made a very bad search after all.

Quote from Philia

As for a practical application...

In my own life, I want to create pleasurable friendships with like minded people. And so I ask myself how will I do that in these current times? Where I live (Oregon) is currently having a continued covid surge, which makes it difficult to create new social connections. My few friends are all busy people --- people live insular lives with their life partner, raising children, working long hours. I do none of those things, and so simply want to create a way to interact with people, and preferably in a fun way.

I must say I find myself in a very similar situation. I also believe being able to interact and have pleasurable conversations with like-minded people is not only beneficial, but it's also a way of merging ideas and possibly starting something aiming a common goal.

Quote from Cassius

That's the reason why I think that whatever can happen will start online. Even if you're focusing on real-life meetings, you need a way to coordinate those meetings. Telegram or text messaging or Facebook are all "part" of the answer - to get the word out - but for long-lasting collaborative effort I don't think there's a substitute for a "permanent" on-line presence like this one.

Indeed, I think the internet, especially in the times we're living in, is the best "place" to find like-minded people and to organize something that can lead to true collaboration.

A question: is there any way to private message someone in the forum?

Quote from Don

I would be careful about ascribing the meaning of "economic" self-sufficiency to that word. From what I can find, autarkeia (the word in ancient Greek) had a self-sufficiency connotation of satisfied with yourself, content with yourself, etc.

Quote from Don

It appears there is some economic self-sufficiency implied by autarkeia, but more to be satisfied with what you have as far as I can tell.

It seems to me that the term 'self-sufficiency' in Epicurean Philosophy, is strongly related to an economic meaning. What I could understand from DeWitt's utilization of the word is that corresponds, not to be satisfied with what you have, but to the ability of fulfilling one's "natural and necessary desires" (food, water and shelter) with one's own resources. If this is the case, then I believe the self-sufficiency concept pursued in an eco-village/agro-forestry model would be in accordance with the Epicurean one, since the goal is to use the land (own resource) to provide food, water and shelter without depending on public/private services.

I'd like to quote fragments of DeWitt's book that led me to that interpretation of self-sufficiency:

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[Chapter X: The New Freedom / Section: Necessity and Fortune]

"According to Epicurus, the wise man will keep himself prepared through addiction to the simple life and the cultivation of self-sufficiency. During a siege of Athens he kept his associates alive by doling out the beans. One of his apothegms applies to such an emergency: “The wise man, when confronted by lack of the necessities, stands by to share with others rather than to have them share with him; so great a reserve of self-sufficiency he discovers."

(...)

So consistently does Epicurus urge throughout his teaching the maintenance of freedom and the control of experience, which is freedom at its best, that he even brings it into relationship with diet and the general design of living. (...) To Epicurus the simple life meant contentment with little and this was called self-sufficiency, which in turn meant freedom: “Of self-sufficiency the most precious fruit is freedom.” That the reference of these words was to food and not to friendship is made clear by the following: “The wise man, when confronted by lack of the necessities, stands by rather to share with others than to have them share with him; so great a reserve of self-sufficiency he discovers.” (...) The proper attitude toward the desires, according to Authorized Doctrine 29, is to regard some as “natural and necessary,” others as “natural but not necessary,” and the rest as “neither natural nor necessary.” The first class has reference to food, drink, clothing, and housing. (...) The correct procedure is defined in Vatican Saying 21: “Human nature is not to be coerced but persuaded, and we shall persuade her by satisfying the necessary desires, and the natural desires if they are not injurious, but relentlessly denying the harmful.”

[Chapter XIV: The New Virtues / Section: Hope]

(...) “there was no necessity of living with Necessity”; by building up a reserve of self-sufficiency the wise man could forestall the compulsions of poverty, war, or servitude.

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It also seems to me that "self-sufficiency" is a requirement to reach the state of "ataraxia", since the possibility of not being able to fulfill your basic needs (like having shelter and something to eat) would put you in a state of disturbance.

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“The wise man, when confronted by lack of the necessities, stands by to share with others rather than to have them share with him; so great a reserve of self-sufficiency he discovers."

This sentence is very important to me in particular, since it makes me realize that that are basically two ways of increasing the "reserve of self-sufficiency": accumulating more resources or limiting your necessities; both will do it, but the last one seems much easier to achieve.

At last, my overall knowledge of Epicurean philosophy is still very limited, so I appreciate you guys pointing out any signs of misinterpretation.

Quote from Philia

And I also can see that it could be wonderful to re-create a modern Garden (or Gardens)...even a movement which would bring friendship and savoring life as the most important things, and work to overcome alienation, isolation, and consumerist over-consumption. And it would also be a place to examine and discuss the question of what makes a worthwhile enjoyable life.

I often find myself thinking about that, and it makes me wonder if anyone here has ever heard or know of the existence of such places nowadays anywhere in the world? I believe it would work on some Ecovillage self-sustainable model. It would be indeed an amazing place to visit, volunteer or even live for a while. Where we could study and exercise the philosophy in a theoretical and practical way.

By the way, welcome Philia! I am also new to the forum and found it a tremendously useful resource.

Actually his last name is not Portuguese, I believe it's German and I have no idea what it means either!

It's portuguese. The name of the translator (who mentioned the forum) is Lúcio Jakobsmuschel.

This was it:
https://www.amazon.com.br/Epicuro-Cartas…/dp/B082Y555XZ/

It's basically a translation of the three letters and the principal doctrines based on the english translation by Robert Drew Hicks (which is also presented in the book).

Hello Cassius and everyone! To tell you a little bit about my studies on Epicurus, I'm pretty much a beginner. I've been studying for a while now the canon and history of ancient western philosophy and I now hold a particularly strong personal interest in Epicurean philosophy, not only for mere knowledge but also for practical application in my personal life. I found out about this forum while reading a book containing the translation of the three letters where the translator cited this forum as a useful source of information. I've been using it since then, for consulting. Now I intend to take my studies on Epicurus to a higher level.
Thanks for the welcome message!