Posts by Don

Quote from Cassius

Any possibility they trying to save space on the paper as much as possible so writing in continuous lines, but somehow marking where lines started on the manuscript from which they were copying?

(I also added a postscript to that last post of I was editing while you were replying.)

The scribe here in Vat.gr.1950 doesn't seem as concerned with maximizing his writing surface. Back in the day, Philodemus's texts would run everything all together. This 14th c manuscript with the Sayings actually has word breaks and will start a new line when the previous saying is done. One component is definitely the start of a new quote, but not consistently... At least from our perspective on what we would expect to be a new quote.

Quote from Cassius

So do you have any theory at all as to the use of the red?

Typically, it's simply the first word of each "saying," marking the beginning of each quote.

However, as I've noted on several just so far, sometimes the beginning of what we would see as a beginning does not have a red letter, and a couple so far have a red letter in the "middle" of a saying. I initially just took the "Oh, they mark the start of each saying" route. Now, I'm not sure whether we should invest them with any additional significance or not. This has become an eye opening exercise!

This exercise also brings to light a problem with just accepting "Oh, Vatican Saying X is just identical to Principal Doctrine Y. Nothing to see here." Yes, they may be *almost* identical, but if they're not entirely, how does that affect our reading of each? Vat.gr.1950 is dated to 1300-1350 CE, so not as early as some of the earliest manuscripts for Diogenes Laertius which go back to the 12th c, I believe. How do the VS/PD correlations look in reference to the earliest Laertius manuscripts? Vat.gr.1950 is getting its versions from somewhere! This is where the fun begins!

This is the header/title of the section containing the "Vatican Sayings"...

and reads:

Επικουρου προσφωνησισ (Epikourou prosphonesis)

The first word is, of course, "of Epicurus"

The second word means something like "address, dedication, etc."

So it could be even something like "the mode of speaking of Epicurus" or, since his name comes first, "Epicurus's mode of speaking."

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, π , προσφύρω , προσφών-ησις

I must say I like that fancy initial Epsilon+pi ligature in Epicurus's name With a little fancy photomanipulation we can get just Epicurus's name with some flourishes from that title:

Επικουροσ (Epicurus)

DigiVatLib

402r

Typical rendering:

We treasure our character as our own, whether or not it is worthy in itself or admired by others; and so we must honor our fellow men, if they are good. ἤθη ὥσπερ τὰ ἡμῶν αὐτῶν ἴδια τιμῶμεν, ἄν τε χρηστὰ ἔχωμεν, καὶ ὑπὸ τῶν ἀνθρώπων ζηλούμενα, ἄν τε μή· οὕτω χρὴ καὶ <τὰ> τῶν πέλας, ἂν ἐπιεικεῖς ὦσιν.

The Vat.gr.1950 manuscript text reads:

DigiVatLib

402r

The typical transcription reads:

γεγόναμεν ἅπαξ, δὶς δὲ οὐκ ἔστι γενέσθαι· δεῖ δὲ τὸν αἰῶνα μηκέτι εἶναι· σὺ δὲ οὐκ ὢν τῆς αὔριον κύριος ἀναβάλλῃ τὸ χαῖρον· ὁ δὲ βίος μελλησμῷ παραπόλλυται καὶ εἷς ἕκαστος ἡμῶν ἀσχολούμενος ἀποθνῄσκει.

However, look at the VERY beginning of the saying. There is a large red capital epsilon: Ε' γεγοναμεν αμαξ... that doesn't appear in the regular rendering of that line. Bailey makes no note of the capital epsilon. This makes it clear each of these will have to be examined more closely.

Okay, so it looks like VS13 does NOT have a red capital letter starting it and comes right after VS12 in the manuscript. In fact the 2nd half of VS13 DOES have a red capital starting it!

VS13 = PD27 and PD27 typically runs:

ὧν ἡ σοφία παρασκευάζεται εἰς τὴν τοῦ ὅλου βίου μακαριότητα πολὺ μέγιστόν ἐστιν ἡ τῆς φιλίας κτῆσις.

VS13 in the Vatican manuscript reads:

https://digi.vatlib.it/view/MSS_Vat.gr.1950.pt.2/0255

So, the text in the manuscript reads:

ὧν ἡ σοφία παρασκευάζεται εἰς τὴν τοῦ ὅλου βίου μακαριότητα

Πολὺ μέγιστόν ἐστιν ἡ τῆς ?????? κτῆσις.

which means it breaks the sense of the saying as:

Of all the things that wisdom provides for the complete happiness of one's entire life

By far the greatest is the possession of ????... It looks like σοφιδο (or some version of σοφια????).

Are we to see these as two different sayings?? Something like:

Of all things, wisdom (sophia) provides for the complete happiness of one's entire life.

By far the greatest (thing) is the possession of wisdom.

This is curious and deserves some digging into.

And THIS is why I'm doing these one by one

VS12 = PD17 however, it appears the two are not identical in their phrasing.

Vat.gr.1950, 402r

DigiVatLib

The typical rendering of PD17 is:

ὁ δίκαιος ἀταρακτότατος, ὁ δʼ ἄδικος πλείστης ταραχῆς γήμων.

One who acts aright is utterly steady and serene, whereas one who goes astray is full of trouble and confusion.

However, this saying in the Vatican manuscript includes a couple "extra" words (like βιος "life") then also goes right into the next Vatican saying, here underlined:

ὁ δίκαιος βιος ἀταρακτότατος, ὁ δε ἄδικος πλείστης ταραχῆς γήμων (VS13 starts here) ων ? σοφια πρασ...and so on until the end of the line ending with what appears to be μακαριοτ...??

With the inclusion of "life" is seems like an alternative translation would being "Τhe just life..."

See VS13 for more on this.

I like the poetic aspect of the one Joshua found.

But I really like the more literal translation that Bryan offered above!

Once again, translation is hard

Quote from Cassius

YES that works!

Cool. I'll go back in and change those links in VS1-11 & 81.

Honestly, I have completely selfish reasons for putting those snippets in the forum threads. I'll never have to look them up when we ask "What does that say?"🤔

Try this...

DigiVatLib

I dug around a little more and it looks like you can link directly to pages (albeit I'm getting a 2-page spread from that link)

https://digi.vatlib.it/view/MSS_Vat.gr.1950.pt.2

404v, bottom of the page

οὐ λύει τὴν τῆς ψυχῆς ταραχὴν οὐδὲ τὴν ἀξιόλογον ἀπογεννᾷ χαρὰν οὔτε πλοῦτος ὑπάρχων ὁ μέγιστος οὔθʼ ἡ παρὰ τοῖς πολλοῖς τιμὴ καὶ περίβλεψις οὔτʼ ἄλλο τι τῶν παρὰ τὰς ἀδιορίστους αίτίας.

So, here's what I *hoped* you'd see... with the page numbers at the bottom

Quote from Cassius

Well it opens up but to the book cover. I was hoping to find somewhere a direct link to the page where the particular text appears.

Are looking on mobile or laptop?

You should see the folio/page numbers along that bottom.

They got that wrong. It's Epicurus.

You're not seeing the pages from that link?

Quote from Cassius

how long is the whole document

Good question. ....counting... 7 pages: 401v to 404v

DigiVatLib

402r

Quote from Joshua

Translated:

http://poemsintranslation.blogspot.com/2014/12/marcus…ellias.html?m=1

"Dis" is not part of his wife's name, but seems to relate to the word discedere, "to depart". He built the tomb after she died (departed), for both of them, as well as for their liberti, freed slaves.

That's a great find, Joshua! Well done!

I had just begun to translate the Greek, and, yep, That's a good fluid translation there! I'm going to paste their translation here because it's too good for people to miss if they don't click the link:

Do not pass by my epitaph, dear passer-by.

Stop. Read and learn, and when you understand, go on:

There is no Charon waiting on a boat in Hades.

No judge named Aeacus, no dog called Cerberus.

All of us who've gone dead down here are now no more

Than rotting bone and ash. I've told it as it is

And have no more to say. Now, passer-by, go on

And know I keep the rule of dead men: tell no tales.

This tomb's just stone. So bring no myrrh or garlands.

Do not waste money on a fire.

If you want to gift me something, you should have

Done it when I was still alive.

If you mix wine with ash you just get mud.

Besides, the dead do not drink wine.

Just sprinkle some soil. Say: what I was before

I was, I have become once more.

See additional commentary in VS8...

DigiVatLib

402r

DigiVatLib

402r

Note that VS8 = PD15

ὁ τῆς φύσεως πλοῦτος καὶ ὥρισται καὶ εὐπόριστός ἐστιν, ὁ δὲ τῶν κενῶν δοξῶν εἰς ἄπειρον ἐκπίπτει.

BUT that last word ἐκπίπτει ends on the 2nd line. The next red initial Greek letter is Τῶν πλείστων ἀνθρώπων... which is VS11.

The popular VS 9 κακὸν ἀνάγκη, ἀλλʼ οὐδεμία ἀνάγκη ζῆν μετὰ ἀνάγκης. "Compulsion is a bad thing, but there is no compulsion to live under compulsion." starts at the end of the 2nd line of VS8 here. BUT between the end of ...ἐκπίπτει and the beginning of κακὸν ἀνάγκη... we have more text which *appears* to be:

και eido?ποριστος or something like that.... sorry, I'll have to work on the paleography.

VS9 ends and then VS10, which is attributed to Metrodorus starts towards the end of the 3rd line BUT NOTE that it does not have a RED capital letter! I'm wondering if that's significant... like the red letter editions of the New Testament where Jesus's words are printed in red?