Posts by Don

This is a great find. I'll work on the Greek eventually unless someone else wants to! Up for grabs.

I ran the first Latin part through Google Translate:

Dis Cerellia Fortunata, my dearest wife, with whom I have lived 40 years without any complaint, Marcus Antonius Encolpus made for himself and Antonius Athenaeus his dearest freedman and their freedmen and liberties and their posterity except ∙ Marcus Antonius Athenianus, whom I forbid to have access to that monument nor the path around the entrance to have none in it, nor for the sake of burial to bring the remains of him and his descendants, because if anyone does anything against this, then the one who did it in the name of punishment to the pontiffs or to the "antescolaris" virgins will have to bring 50,000 sesterces in money, because he has denied me many wrongs to his parent and to Aulus Laelius Apelitis, the dearest client whom he chooses for the donation of the sarcophagus, he chooses for himself, because he has not left me in such a great defeat, whose benefits I leave.

("antescolaris" is a kind of teacher)

Metrodori Epicurei Fragmenta collegit scriptoris incerti Epicurei Commentarium moralem, subiecit Alfredus Koerte : Metrodorus, of Lampsacus, d. 277 B.C : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

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Quote

"I wrote down the opinion of Metrodorus, because it is evident that he had most diligently warned the members to give attention to the management of the family affairs. See p. 544. although this statement certainly cannot be attributed to him."

Thanks for the review. I may have to buy for the library.

Bailey attributes VS10 to Metrodorus, corroborated with the fragments of Metrodorus...

Metrodori Epicurei Fragmenta collegit scriptoris incerti Epicurei Commentarium moralem, subiecit Alfredus Koerte : Metrodorus, of Lampsacus, d. 277 B.C : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

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archive.org

The note seems to say: "Dueningius did not correctly infer from this passage that the book "Pros Menestraton" was written by Metrodorus, the sentence was drawn from a letter." And it must be the letter cited from Clement of Alexandria where the fragment includes addressing "Μενεστρατε Menestraton (vocative)" as the second word. It appears that Menestraton was a ruler of Miletus (3rd - 2nd century BC):

IONIA - MILETUS Bronze, (MB, Æ 20) v26_0080 Greek Coins

... Or not. I suppose there could be more than one Menestraton in the ancient world

Quote from Clement of Alexandria

Metrodorus, though an Epicurean, spoke thus, divinely inspired: “Remember, O Menestratus, that, being a mortal endowed with a circumscribed life, thou hast in thy soul ascended, till thou hast seen endless time, and the infinity of things; and what is to be, and what has been;”

This reminds me of Lucretius's description of Epicurus traveling the universe in his mind.

Here is the Vatican manuscript excerpt...

https://digi.vatlib.it/view/MSS_Vat.gr.1950.pt.2/0255
402r
NOTE that Metrodorus's attributed saying does NOT have a red capital letter starting it. It just is inserted within the text. See musings about a "red letter" edition of Epicurean sayings (like the red letter Bible and Jesus's words in red).

Quote from Joshua

Bailey attributes VS10 to Metrodorus

Metrodori Epicurei Fragmenta collegit scriptoris incerti Epicurei Commentarium moralem, subiecit Alfredus Koerte : Metrodorus, of Lampsacus, d. 277 B.C : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

26

archive.org

The note seems to say: "Dueningius did not correctly infer from this passage that the book "Pros Menestraton" was written by Metrodorus, the sentence was drawn from a letter." And it must be the letter cited from Clement of Alexandria where the fragment includes addressing "Μενεστρατε Menestraton (vocative)" as the second word. It appears that Menestraton was a ruler of Miletus (3rd - 2nd century BC):

IONIA - MILETUS Bronze, (MB, Æ 20) v26_0080 Greek Coins

Quote from Clement of Alexandria

Metrodorus, though an Epicurean, spoke thus, divinely inspired: “Remember, O Menestratus, that, being a mortal endowed with a circumscribed life, thou hast in thy soul ascended, till thou hast seen endless time, and the infinity of things; and what is to be, and what has been;”

This reminds me of Lucretius's description of Epicurus traveling the universe in his mind.

NOTE: I also copied this information to the thread on VS10 in that section of the forum.

To neither harm nor be harmed*

*

PD31 Natural justice is a covenant for mutual benefit, to not harm one another or be harmed.

PS: Pacatus ...I apologize. I missed your mention of PD31 in your initial post. But that's exactly what came to mind when I started to read it. I should be more thorough!

Quote from Cassius

your literalist interpretations

Are you calling me a fundamentalist??

γελᾶν ἅμα δεῖ [one must] καὶ φιλοσοφεῖν καὶ οἰκονομεῖν καὶ τοῖς λοιποῖς οἰκειώμασι χρῆσθαι καὶ μηδαμῇ λήγειν τὰς ἐκ τῆς ὀρθῆς φιλοσοφίας φωνὰς ἀφιέντας.

This sounds something like mindfulness! Do all these things while philosophizing. Note that several of the alternate translations below put philosophize first when the first word in Greek is γελᾶν, the infinitive of γελάω "laugh." So the emphasis is on the laughing first. The translations should really be something like: One must laugh and - at the same time - pursue the love wisdom, administer the rest of one's household affairs,...

41. At one and the same time we must philosophize, laugh, and manage our household and other business, while never ceasing to proclaim the words of true philosophy. http://epicurus.net/en/vatican.html

41. One must philosophize and at the same time laugh and take care of one’s household and use the rest of our personal goods, and never stop proclaiming the utterances of correct philosophy. https://churchofepicurus.wordpress.com/vatican/

VS41. We must laugh and philosophize at the same time and do our household duties and employ our other faculties, and never cease proclaiming the sayings of the true philosophy. https://newepicurean.com/suggested-read…Vatican_Sayings

γεγόναμεν ἅπαξ, δὶς δὲ οὐκ ἔστι γενέσθαι· δεῖ δὲ τὸν αἰῶνα μηκέτι εἶναι· σὺ δὲ οὐκ ὢν τῆς αὔριον κύριος ἀναβάλλῃ τὸ χαῖρον· ὁ δὲ βίος μελλησμῷ παραπόλλυται καὶ εἷς ἕκαστος ἡμῶν ἀσχολούμενος ἀποθνῄσκει.

"Γεγόναμεν ἅπαξ." (Gegónamen hápax) We are born once and only once. Let that sink in. This life we have is the only life we will have. Make it personal: This life I am living right now is the only life I will have. This moment only happens once. What will I do with it? How shall I spend this precious, unique life?

Παραπόλλυται (Parapóllutai) refers to something "ruined undeservedly." Our precious life deserves to be lived! If we are constantly putting off and delaying living, experiencing, loving life, we ruin and squander this life and it does not deserve that. You would ruin your life undeservedly. You deserve better than that.

From Attalus: Johannes Stobaeus, Anthology, XVI.28: From Epicurus: "We are born once and there can be no second birth. For all eternity we shall no longer be. But you, although you are not master of tomorrow, are postponing your happiness. We waste away our lives in delaying, and each of us dies without having enjoyed leisure." {= Usener 204}

μελλ-ησμός, ὁ,

A procrastination, indecision of character, Epicur.Sent.Vat.14, D.H. 7.17, Gal.1.576, Paus.4.21.4.

II approach, threatening, of disease, Aret.SD1.11.

Quote from Aristotle

“We become just (δίκαια) by doing just acts, temperate (σώφρων) by doing temperate acts, brave by doing brave acts. 1. [5] This truth is attested by the experience of states: lawgivers make the citizens good by training them in habits of right action—this is the aim of all legislation, and if it fails to do this it is a failure; this is what distinguishes a good form of constitution from a bad one.” (1103b)

Is that the one you're thinking of?

Quote from Cassius

Don and his badger-like investigations

LOL!!! So, there'll be a badger on my coat of arms. I'll need to change my username to Τροχος, a word used by Aristotle to refer to an animal that appears to have been referring to a badger... But no one is sure. Μodern is Ασβός but that's too easy.

The text in Diogenes Laertius for PD5 is slightly different than the text of VS5. Often, VS5 is simply referenced as PD5 ... but while the text is VERY similar, it is not identical.

PD5 Diogenes Laertius text: Οὐκ ἔστιν ἡδέως ζῆν ἄνευ τοῦ φρονίμως καὶ καλῶς καὶ δικαίως, <οὐδὲ φρονίμως καὶ καλῶς καὶ δικαίως> ἄνευ τοῦ ἡδέως. ὅτῳ δὲ τοῦτο μὴ ὑπάρχει ἐξ οὗ ζῆν φρονίμως, καὶ καλῶς καὶ δικαίως ὑπάρχει, οὐκ ἔστι τοῦτον ἡδέως ζῆν.

It is impossible to live a pleasant life without living wisely and well and justly, and it is impossible to live wisely and well and justly without living pleasantly. Whenever any one of these is lacking, when, for instance, the man is not able to live wisely, though he lives well and justly, it is impossible for him to live a pleasant life. (Hicks)

VS5 text: Οὐκ ἔστιν ἡδέως ζῆν ἄνευ τοῦ φρονίμως καὶ καλῶς καὶ δικαίως, ὅπου δὲ τοῦτο μὴ ὑπάρχει, οὐκ ἔστιν ἡδέως ζῆν.

It is impossible to live a pleasant life without living wisely and well and justly, and so where these do not exist, it is impossible to live a pleasant life. (Vat.gr.1950 manuscript, with translation repurposing Hicks with the exception of ὅπου "where" vs ὅτῳ "whenever".)

(NOTE: This should really also be posted to the VS5 thread but that section is locked... Cassius?)

By Zeus! I don't know what to believe now!

Here's the manuscript of VS67

Here is the Wotke & Usener footnotes:

I haven't dug into this one yet, so I'm not sure how many differences there are. But I can definitely see κτηματα in the manuscript as opposed to the common text's χρήματα!

ἐλεύθερος βίος οὐ δύναται κτήσασθαι χρήματα πολλὰ διὰ τὸ τὸ πρᾶγμα <μὴ> ῥᾴδιον εἶναι χωρὶς θητείας ὄχλων ἢ δυναστῶv, ἀλλὰ συνεχεῖ δαψιλείᾳ πάντα κέκτηται· ἄν δέ που καὶ τύχῃ χρημάτων πολλῶv, καὶ ταῦτα ῥᾳδίως ἃν εἰς τὴν τοῦ πλησίον εὔνοιαν διαμετρήσαι.

Common translation: A free person is unable to acquire great wealth, because that is not easily achieved without enslavement to the masses or to the powers that be. Instead, he already has everything he needs, and in abundance. But if by chance he should have great wealth, he could easily share it with his fellows to win their goodwill.

κτηματα "pieces of property, possessions"

χρήματα "needs; things that one needs or uses; goods, property; money; things, matters, affairs"

So, maybe not earthshattering ... but I' goin gto have to dig into the rest of the discrepancies and see.

As far as the parallel constructions go, maybe it's enough that they end in the same letters?

σοφίαν φιλίαν

νοητον ἀθάνατον

Although those are very common grammatical endings, so...

Still, there's no arguing with what it actually written in the manuscript!

* ὁ γενναῖος περὶ σοφίαν καὶ φιλίαν μάλιστα γίγνεται, ὧν τὸ μέν ἐστι νοητον ἀγαθόν, τὸ δὲ ἀθάνατον.

An alternative translation: "One who is noble in mind most of all depends upon wisdom and friendship — one is a good perceptible to the mind, thinkable, and imaginable; the other, everlasting and perpetual."

I would take that that friendship is so important, one can barely conceive of its importance.

γενναῖος "noble in mind, high-minded" From γέννα (génna, “descent, birth, origin”) +‎ -ιος (-ios). Compare ἀγενής (agenḗs "of no family, ignoble, mean, cowardly, vile"). Think of the name Eugene "well-born, noble"

σοφίαν (sophian "skill in matters of common life. sound judgement, intelligence, practical wisdom") Remember this is also the exact element in philosophy "φιλοσοφία ".

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, σοφία

γίγνεται has a number of connotations including:γ. παρά τι to depend upon...

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, γίγνομαι

νοητος

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, νο-ητός

αθάνατος

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, ἀθα?́να^τ-ος

Well, would you look at that! It was hiding in DeWitt (p. 226) all along!

DeWitt uses the noeton in the manuscript and NOT the thneton "correction."

pasted-from-clipboard.png

I'm taking another look at this... Yes, we're starting the morning out with a bang. Good thing it's a holiday and I don't have to go to work!

That first letter is clearly an epsilon: ε

The next letter is a ligature for sigma+tau (i.e., s+t): pasted-from-clipboard.png

and the next letter rounds out esti: εστι

The next letter appears to me be a nu which would start νοητον. I don't see any room for θν(ητον) and that letter is clearly a familiar variant of nu. It matches that middle version here perfectly: pasted-from-clipboard.png

Yep, the manuscript has νοητον. Jury still out if it's a scribal error or not, but the manuscript clearly has νοητον. Is this an instance of Usener knowing better than the scribe? The manuscript dates from between 1301 and 1350, so we're NOT talking anywhere near contemporary with the *original* sources... but still, it's all we got.

Wikipedia has a nice table of ancient Greek miniscule writing including some ligatures for those who want to dive into these waters with me:

Greek minuscule - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

and this page is even more thorough:

https://schmidhauser.us/tools/rgl/rgreekl2.pdf

Would these have any relevance for this discussion with wisdom/Sages and friendship being discussed?

[U386]

Philodemus, On the Life of the Gods, Vol. Herc. 1, VI col. 1: ... to the gods, and he admires their nature and their condition and tries to approach them and, so to speak, yearns to touch them and to be together with them; and he calls Sages "friends of the gods" and the gods "friends of Sages."

[ U539 ]

Cicero, On End-Goals, Good and Bad, I.20.65 (Torquatus to Cicero): On the subject of friendship... Epicurus’ pronouncement about friendship is that of all the means to happiness that wisdom has devised, none is greater, none more fruitful, none more delightful than this. Nor did he only commend this doctrine by his eloquence, but far more by the example of his life and conduct.

Just putting these here for discussion on the topic at hand. No strong feelings one way or the other on applicability.

DigiVatLib

There's the manuscript link.

codex Vaticanus Graecus 1950 (1950 is the reference number, not a date incidentally)

The Vatican Sayings begin at the bottom of folio 401v with the big red Τ for Το μακαριον και αφθσρτον ... (PD1 and VS1)

Hartel is trying to "improve" the manuscript. Usener evidently accepts the θνητον of the manuscript but adds Hartel's improvement as a footnote to be thorough.

I usually try to stick with the manuscript. So...

There's the line in codex Vaticanus Graecus 1950, starting at the red O for ὁ γενναῖος...

Here's the Greek as shown in Wotke & Usener:

78* ὁ γενναῖος περὶ σοφίαν καὶ φιλίαν μάλιστα γίγνεται, ὧν τὸ μέν ἐστι θνητὸν ἀγαθόν, τὸ δὲ ἀθάνατον.

Their footnote then says: (line) 26 θνητον| νοητον V : verb. (verbessert von) H.

What does the manuscript look like to me?

ὁ γενναῖος περὶ σοφίαν καὶ φιλίαν μάλιστα γίγνεται, ὧν τὸ μέν ἐστι... Wait for it....

pasted-from-clipboard.png Well, would you look at that!

It certainly looks like νοητον to me!! And I don't think you have to know Greek to see those first markings don't look like θνητον. For example, here's a theta from elsewhere in the same saying from agathon:

There's no "loopy" theta at the beginning of that word νοητον within the manuscript. Hmmm.....

That said, Epicurus did like his parallel constructions and thneton "mortal", athanaton "undying" would be more in keeping... BUT that's not what the manuscript says! νοητόν is the Attic variation of νοητός.

Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon, νο-ητός

"falling within the province of νοῦς,"

So, I'm not saying some scribe didn't misspell the word and write νοητον when it should have been θνητον ( as the prevalent wording has made it), All it would take are two letters. And the parallel of mortal/immortal is in keeping with Epicurus's style... but again, that's not what the manuscript has. And, to the best of my knowledge, we don't have another instance of this saying anywhere else, do we?? As far as I know, this manuscript is the ONLY copy of the "Vatican Sayings" so there's nothing to "compare" to.

GREAT FIND, Onenski !!!

Source (Wotke & Usener, 1888):

Spruchsammlung; [Gr.] entdeckt u. mitgetheilt von K. Wotke.

Key to Source/Manuscript initials

V = Codex Vaticanus gr. 1950

W = verbessert von Dr. C. Wotke

U = verbessert von Usener

H= verbessert von Hartel

So, according to p.197, the Codex Vaticanus gr. 1950 (V) has θνητον (mortal) but Hartel "improved/amended" the text to νοητον, maybe for the same reasons we find it hard to interpret. Hartel appears to be a German scholar, like Usener and Wotke, not the name of a manuscript.